Made in Wigan
Vital Champions League
Then where the fuck are they?
Surely dead man walking
- Thread starter jocklatic
- Start date
Then where the fuck are they?
jocklatic
Vital 1st Team Regular
MiW
I've been one of the apologists along the way where I thought PC might have just turned a corner only to be proved wrong...I've been off n on the fence so many times my arse is like a box of matches. I've also said the hindsight brigade will be out in force whatever scenario - if we go down the people calling for his head will say "I told you so" & if he keeps us up the pro PC will also say "I told you so"...what we can all say tho is "it's never done the easy way"...oh for mid table mediocrity!!!
moonay
Vital Football Legend
What exactly would you like me to say MiW? I've given my version of what's happened in recent games - including last night - and I'll acknowledge that Cook holds some of the blame for our position....... as do the team as a whole, and specifically, a few individuals.
Taking the lead against Reading, Bristol, Derby, and Hull means we're doing summat right. Unfortunately, the fact we've only got one point from those games may be down to a number or reasons.
Bottle? Belief? Fright? Nerves? Complacency? Amateurism? Laziness? Uncertainty?
Maybe some of those can be down to the Manager........ but others are a little more intangible.
Cooks sending his team out to win. That's patently obvious by us taking the lead so often. However, mistakes let the opposition back in, and then these additional factors come into play.
Just thought. I interpreted your response as "where are the bollocks?"!!!........ I now suspect you meant "where are his defenders?"
I'll still be here mate.
?
Made in Wigan
Vital Champions League
Moonay, you've been on the fence. It was directed more toward the likes of Morris and Hud who despite defending him to the hilt have disappeared when the penny has dropped.
jocklatic
Vital 1st Team Regular
Something somewhere is wrong if as u say he sends the team out to win, takes the lead & ultimately can't hold said lead....if PC could put his finger on the cause then we'd have reached 'mid table mediocrity' but he just hasn't been able to, put alongside the poss teams belief that they won't hold onto a lead & haven't won away from home in so many months it just spreads panic within the team. Yet on the other side of the coin - last night Reading score in the 97th min- attributed perhaps to belief n determination where perhaps our players mentality towards the end of games are focused on a nice hot shower!!!!
moonay
Vital Football Legend
That would be a fair point ......... if we hadn't done the same last saturday.
king_dezeeuw06
Vital Champions League
The thing is the people asking to keep Cook were backing him more on personal likability, faith and hope - the people wanting him gone were saying it based on results and performances. If you wanted to keep Cook back then despite performances and results why would you change your mind now as they are pretty much the same. Some folks may have seen enough evidence to change their opinion but at the same time as long as we are not mathmatically relegated then there is still the chance their faith can be rewarded.
If we would've went on results and performances we'd have got rid of Marinez in his first season but he somehow managed to keep us up 3 years and win the FA Cup despite being garbage the vast majority of the time over those 4 years - sometimes blind faith can be rewarded so i understand where people were coming from sticking up for Cook - they were hoping for that again.
But personally i think Martinez rewarding the clus faith against the odds was more an annomoly rather than something to base future decision making on. I think that feelings and faith in a manager should be completely dictated by results and performance rather than conflicting with them.
If we scrape survival by Rotherham losing every single game or something then the Cook advocates will say their faith has been rewarded and we all should've just believed like them, if we go down those of us will say the writing was blatently on the wall and we buried our heads in the sand. But those who make their decisions with heart or head are unlikely to change that moving forward - whichever way you go you will get some right and wrong - in football anything can happen so there isn't a proven guarentee of anything. Personally think you get more right when you go with your head than heart but others disagree and there is no categorical way to prove one is always the right way.
E
exiled tic
Guest
It's not a dark corner that we buggered off too, it was the likes of Bristol and Hull, you should try going to some of these places and then realise that's why we don't spend all our time on here!
Made in Wigan
Vital Champions League
Been to both numerous times. Fact remains you were an advocate of keeping him despite plenty of evidence to suggest he was a busted flush. Per above from King it wasn't based on anything tangible. I like the bloke myself as I've said but I'd prefer to base decisions on something other than likeability. Unsurprisingly you're now all very quiet now the reality has dawned. No doubt that you'll return waving the Pom Poms and banging the tambourines when someone new is installed in the summer to manage us in league 1.
Speaking of summer it was still summer when we last won an away game, the test series against India was still underway. We'll be lucky if it's summer when we win our next. How the fuck he's been retained is beyond me with that type of form and you don't stay up with form like that. Royle botched the decision when this evidence suggested he needed to go so if I was iec id be dispensing with his services too.
moonay
Vital Football Legend
KDZ, you've posted some excellent posts on here, so I'll give you credit for them,......... but this is not one of your better ones.
Given our budget, compared to that of most of the rest of the league, just what did you expect when we were in the Premier league? Neither Jewell nor Bruce sought to establish long term foundations re club development. Martinez endeavoured to put that long term strategy in place ....... but didn't have a massive budget for players ..... especially after Bruce spent it all !
The illuminating thing though, is that your endearing memory of his tenure here is "garbage" ........... whereas mine is
a) beating all of the "top 6"
b) that amazing run where we played probably the best football ever played by any Tics side, ever ................ and of course .....
c) that day in May.
I don't know what you expected KDZ, but he exceeded all of mine.
moonay
Vital Football Legend
Made in Wigan
Vital Champions League
No need MiW. No need. Makes you sound like Whitty.
There is a need. They need to understand the consequences of this blind faith and not keep repeating it.
Is your life so empty that you need someone to argue with. I know what you're like you'll go over the same ground time after time just for the sake if it. I think you're one if those people that thinks if you have the last word it means you've been proved right.
My last post on this subject was that I would keep him because the club needs continuity. I don't know the figures but I suspect there were over 100 players moved either in or out of the club in 2 years because of constant changing. That is madness.
The reason this supposed Happy Clapper hasn't posted isn't because he's been hiding away. Its because his view hasn't changed. You may feel the need to constantly repeat things as a means of self justification. I don't. I know you'll try your best to stretch this argument out but not with me you won't. You know my position. If it changes I'll say.
Until it does don't be so mouthy and arrogant as to presume I've crawled under a stone somewhere to hide.
My last post on this subject was that I would keep him because the club needs continuity. I don't know the figures but I suspect there were over 100 players moved either in or out of the club in 2 years because of constant changing. That is madness.
The reason this supposed Happy Clapper hasn't posted isn't because he's been hiding away. Its because his view hasn't changed. You may feel the need to constantly repeat things as a means of self justification. I don't. I know you'll try your best to stretch this argument out but not with me you won't. You know my position. If it changes I'll say.
Until it does don't be so mouthy and arrogant as to presume I've crawled under a stone somewhere to hide.
moonay
Vital Football Legend
It's not blind faith ........ it's just not wanting to change things every bloody time summat goes wrong.
To repeat the act of sacking a Manager who's just got us promoted would have been daft. Maybe in in hindsight, it might seem the right thing to do ......... just like in hindsight, maybe it was the wrong thing to do the first time round ....... and that's not to even mention Rosler !
king_dezeeuw06
Vital Champions League
Most of the time under Martinez our performances and results were truly awful - you are highlighting the times that we weren't. I'd say Martinez had about 80% terrible, 10% outstanding and 10% mediocre. I never said it was all bad - Martinez undoubtedly gave us the best moments we've had but he also gave us a hell of a lot of utter shite too. The ratio of good to bad was massively more bad that good - but the good was excepitonal.
moonay
Vital Football Legend
KDZ ..... budget ......expectations ........ ???
I understand (and agree with) the terrible (harsh?) and mediocre aspects - though disagree with the percentages - but it just goes to show how a premature sacking might be the wrong thing to do. After all, if he'd have gone when you say, then we wouldn't have seen any of the exceptional stuff.
Checkmate.
I understand (and agree with) the terrible (harsh?) and mediocre aspects - though disagree with the percentages - but it just goes to show how a premature sacking might be the wrong thing to do. After all, if he'd have gone when you say, then we wouldn't have seen any of the exceptional stuff.
Checkmate.
Made in Wigan
Vital Champions League
Everytime summat went wrong? He was given until the new year when it was evident he was out of his depth at this level of football. It is daft therefore to retain a manager when it's clear he's out of his depth. No one wants us to keep changing managers for the sake of it, but when it's necessary what choice do we have?
Made in Wigan
Vital Champions League
I notice you crawled from under your stone last night to have a pop at a fellow poster Formby. Is your life so empty that you cannot contribute to anything without it just being abuse toward others? No defence of Cook, his selections, tactics, management - just deriding others who do have a view on it. Sad.
Made in Wigan
Vital Champions League
KDZ ..... budget ......expectations ........ ???
I understand (and agree with) the terrible (harsh?) and mediocre aspects - though disagree with the percentages - but it just goes to show how a premature sacking might be the wrong thing to do. After all, if he'd have gone when you say, then we wouldn't have seen any of the exceptional stuff.
Checkmate.
Rightly or wrongly, the only reason he wasnt sacked because he was mates with Whelan. Anyone else would have gone given some of those calamitous performances.
moonay
Vital Football Legend
By "every time", I meant Coyle, Rosler, Mackay, Caldwell, Joyce, Barrow ........
What is daft is to assume that a Manager is "out of his depth" at a standard where he won the league below.
Things to learn, yep. Naive, maybe. Stubborn, almost certainly. .......... but unless you wade out into deeper water, how the hell do you ever establish what "your depth" is?
What is daft is to assume that a Manager is "out of his depth" at a standard where he won the league below.
Things to learn, yep. Naive, maybe. Stubborn, almost certainly. .......... but unless you wade out into deeper water, how the hell do you ever establish what "your depth" is?
