Summer transfer thread | Page 147 | Vital Football

Summer transfer thread

When have I derided anyone?

I have asked openly, several times for people to explain to me what they see that I don't. That's a genuine request. If someone can explain to me why they see Worrall in the same bracket as Dawson then I am.haooy to listen, just as I have when Mao has made a point I had not considered.

No one has actually answered me though. The best bash has been you telling me he can tackle and head the ball. Forgive me if that half hearted vindication hasnt exactly convinced me.

I've asked several times and so far he is a potential PL class player largely because he is our youngster and because people want him to be.

Any genuine answers other than that I am open to, but I still see a decent SBC player of the future.
I was giving examples of what sort of things to look for FFS.

What precisely led you to think Lascelles would be a top player?

What precisely leads you to think Worrall won’t?

You watch a player and you make judgements. They are subjective and based on opinion in large part.

When I watched Worrall I saw a player who could do all the basics and had a good reading of the game. A player it was difficult to dominate and who took responsibility and kept showing. I saw a player with potential. Potential to be nurtured and encouraged and brought through over a couple of seasons.

No idea what you saw but you are effectively saying that if people don’t quantify their opinion and it differs to yours then they are wrong.
 
It's less about what we see, we're not in football management, coaching or scouting, it's more about what the experts see.

So far he's captained a youth team to a tournament win, being voted 2nd best player in the tournament and been the subject of enquiries from teams better than us.

That, IMO, is more important than what laymen on the internet think.

It's interesting when you compare the fans' view of Sterling, for example, versus the ex pros. He gets slated more by armchair experts, myself included, than those that played the game.
 
Always been a lot easier to slate players than it has to dig a little deeper.

Mao and Wesimmo had it smack on imo. You have to look at the background to someone’s development and you have to look at what the professionals are saying to get a more balanced view.

I certainly think I will place more weight on the fact that Dyche was prepared to fling money at him than I would on some anonymous poster on a forum’s opinion.
 
It's less about what we see, we're not in football management, coaching or scouting, it's more about what the experts see.

So far he's captained a youth team to a tournament win, being voted 2nd best player in the tournament and been the subject of enquiries from teams better than us.

That, IMO, is more important than what laymen on the internet think.

It's interesting when you compare the fans' view of Sterling, for example, versus the ex pros. He gets slated more by armchair experts, myself included, than those that played the game.


Good points, and probably the best counter-argument made so far.

But within that though, you have to also say that Karanka hasnt fancied him yet. He was injured at the start of his reign but not for all of it.

We can say what we like about footballing insiders, but for the manager of Nottingham Forest he was behind Fox, Figueiredo and even Mancienne at times in a defence that was poor. How do we explain that other than Karanka feeling that he wasn't the best option for whatever reason?

Like I have said, if he can get into this team he really will be a good player.
 
Karanka did what he did to turn around our poor form. There is nothing to suggest it was anything other than a short term measure.

Mancienne got a chance as part of deciding whether he should stay or go so there was a different rationale to him playing.

If AK had thought so little of Worrall then I would assume we would have seen another centre back come in. They haven’t and Worrall is now able to fight for a place in the team.
 
Managers and coaches know far more about coaching , tactics etc than us, but when you consider what we have wasted a couple of hundred million on in the past 20 years it's debatable if they are any better at picking a player than we are! Peter Taylor had the knack, but even the great BC dropped quite a few clangers after the break-up!
 
Karanka did what he did to turn around our poor form. There is nothing to suggest it was anything other than a short term measure.

Mancienne got a chance as part of deciding whether he should stay or go so there was a different rationale to him playing.

If AK had thought so little of Worrall then I would assume we would have seen another centre back come in. They haven’t and Worrall is now able to fight for a place in the team.


Basha, I am happy to see.

I know what the narrative will be (Pope thinks Worrall is shit), but all I am saying is that I personally haven't seen top class quality in him yet and I don't rate him as highly as I rate Osborn, Brereton and especially Cash.

If Karanka rates him he'll play him. If he's good enough for this side he'll be excellent and perhaps I'll see more evidence for myself of the top class potential others are raving about
 
Pope, I'd agree with you regarding Cash, he's been class. However, I'd like to turn around your argument about Worrall, and focus it on Brereton. What have you seen in him that makes you think he can be top quality, or a better prospect than Worrall?
As others have pointed out, Worrall came into one of the worst defences we have ever had. He showed maturity, work ethic, and a fantastic attitude when he was dropped. Despite his inexperience he dug out other players when they weren't performing. I would say, when playing, he was our best CB.
Brereton on the other hand was largely awful all season. The Arsenal game aside, he hasn't shown me anything that would suggest he will be a competent Championship striker, let alone PL. His attitude was questionable first half of the season when being played out of his preferred position, work ethic questionable at times and goal scoring record terrible. Take away the two penalties and he scored what, 3 goals? Has to be among the worse records for a striker in the Championship last season. I'm struggling to find anything he did positive last season.
Worrall on the other hand, put in some solid defensive performances, in a dire defence.
 
The midfield being dominant worries me, colback is good but I don't think Watson or Osborne or gueddy are more than mid table midfielders. If there is an eye catching signing coming in I hope it is a quality box to box CM. Can't see it though.
 
Worrall has really good presence for his age, he has natural leadership qualities for his age proven captain material within his peer group and beyond

What I like is he has a good range of passing and gets into go positions to defend and get blocks in, he lacks experience and that shows in general lapses in concentration but even then he has a bit of a lucky streak and gets away with quite a bit but thats a good thing, lucky generals and all that

I reckon he's got a big future ahead of him and we are lucky to have him I think he is the only U21 left playing outside the EPL, had he not had a few injuries and been out the limelight for the best part of 6 months I think we'd have had all on to keep him
 
Pope, I'd agree with you regarding Cash, he's been class. However, I'd like to turn around your argument about Worrall, and focus it on Brereton. What have you seen in him that makes you think he can be top quality, or a better prospect than Worrall?
As others have pointed out, Worrall came into one of the worst defences we have ever had. He showed maturity, work ethic, and a fantastic attitude when he was dropped. Despite his inexperience he dug out other players when they weren't performing. I would say, when playing, he was our best CB.
Brereton on the other hand was largely awful all season. The Arsenal game aside, he hasn't shown me anything that would suggest he will be a competent Championship striker, let alone PL. His attitude was questionable first half of the season when being played out of his preferred position, work ethic questionable at times and goal scoring record terrible. Take away the two penalties and he scored what, 3 goals? Has to be among the worse records for a striker in the Championship last season. I'm struggling to find anything he did positive last season.
Worrall on the other hand, put in some solid defensive performances, in a dire defence.
Got to agree Hardy. Brereton has ability, that is without doubt but Worrall showed far more than he did in circumstances that were just as trying.
 
Pope, I'd agree with you regarding Cash, he's been class. However, I'd like to turn around your argument about Worrall, and focus it on Brereton. What have you seen in him that makes you think he can be top quality, or a better prospect than Worrall?
As others have pointed out, Worrall came into one of the worst defences we have ever had. He showed maturity, work ethic, and a fantastic attitude when he was dropped. Despite his inexperience he dug out other players when they weren't performing. I would say, when playing, he was our best CB.
Brereton on the other hand was largely awful all season. The Arsenal game aside, he hasn't shown me anything that would suggest he will be a competent Championship striker, let alone PL. His attitude was questionable first half of the season when being played out of his preferred position, work ethic questionable at times and goal scoring record terrible. Take away the two penalties and he scored what, 3 goals? Has to be among the worse records for a striker in the Championship last season. I'm struggling to find anything he did positive last season.
Worrall on the other hand, put in some solid defensive performances, in a dire defence.

That's a really good question hardy. Given the stick I have taken for my very mild comments about Worrall, I'm looking forward to seeing how much personal criticism you get for your much stronger comments about Brereton. I'm guessing zero.

A few people have lauded Worrall's Arsenal performance as the key example that makes him a potential star. But Worrall wasn't the stand out performer that day- Brereton was. He absolutely destroyed Arsenal's defence, which consisted of an experience world cup winner and a future England prospect.

For me, Brereton has lots of attributes. He has instinct, he has the ability to score fantastic goals from distance, he is capable of beating defenders and shows awareness of his team mates. In attacking midfield he was starting to torture opposition defenders.

For me what he is capable of is epitomised by his goal against Villa when he first broke through. It was a superb, instinctive finish that looked far more experienced than his age.

For me he has really suffered under pressure. Unlike Worrall, who has three defenders alongside him and a goalkeeper, Brereton has shouldered the full burden of winning us games for far too long. He has admirably learned skills in holding up the ball, and considering the 'efforts' Murphy went to in the same role at the end of the season I think he did well.

But that pressure really affected his finishing and that finishing is the main part of his game to develop.

We can quote stats about end product if we like. I can quote some pretty grim defensive stats at you, which you can then say was not Worrall's fault because defensive responsibility is shared with more experienced players.

Ok, so where were the experienced attacking players helping Brereton? Murphy hasn't scored since November. That goalscoring loan striker role wasn't a shared responsibility that we can farm off the failures to someone older. It was Brereton's job alone and he is only, what? 18?

And the reality is he got into great positions to score. If Brereton had had better finishing last season how many would be have got? I think 12-15 with better but not perfect finishing. An 18 year old doesn't get into that many good scoring positions unless he's got something.

Finishing is something he can learn and practice. He has years to get that right. I think he is an extremely exciting prospect and if we corrected one aspect of his game he would be seen as a real teenage superstar who wouldnt be with us for very long