Soldier hacked to death in Woolwich | Page 16 | Vital Football

Soldier hacked to death in Woolwich

The qu'ran and islam teaches that all non-muslims are infidels.

That's not an extreme opinion, or something only taken literally by fundamentalists. It is a foundation belief in 'all' muslims that non followers are lesser beings than them, and they should encourage questions and teachings from infidels to help them and to give these people a rebirth into islam.

This isnt a tit for tat thread about one religion v another anyway, the point was made that islam is a peaceful religion, and this section is a response to that statement.

In islamic countries they behead people, they butcher their new born, the use torture, they remove limbs as punishment, they opress women. Just for a few examples.

That is not extremist activity either, that is day to day life in a normal muslim country and that is not peaceful, in any way shape or form.
 
Heath,
You probably don`t mean it to sound like this,but it `s almost like you`re defending the extreme muslim acts with previous christian acts.
As a non religious person,I couldn`t care a toss about the christian acts right now.They`ve not just murdered a soldier in his own country,supposedly in the name of some god
 
And I am not condoning their actions, just pointing out that you cannot discriminate against a whole group of people for the acts of a few.

Both books were written in a time where violence was normal and accepted. Both Religions have, on the whole, moved on from this, reinterpreting the texts in a modern context. Unfortunately, both still have followers that continue to interpret the Texts in a literal manner, and commit atrocities in the name of their religion.

And just for the sake of fairness, have you seen what the Bible says about non believers? It's not pretty. Do you follow these teachings to the letter, or do you choose to follow the peace message preached?

 
Whatever the bible says about non believers is completely irrelevant to a non believer.
I try to lead a decent life,helping people where i can and treating people fairly.I can live with myself and if someone wants to punish me for that when i`m dead,I`ll deal with it then !
But for me,going around blowing people up and slaughtering them in the name of a god ,whatever skin colour or fantasy god they believe in ,is just not right.
 
Clubpaver - 4/6/2013 14:54

Whatever the bible says about non believers is completely irrelevant to a non believer.
I try to lead a decent life,helping people where i can and treating people fairly.I can live with myself and if someone wants to punish me for that when i`m dead,I`ll deal with it then !
But for me,going around blowing people up and slaughtering them in the name of a god ,whatever skin colour or fantasy god they believe in ,is just not right.
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I agree entirely. These people need stopping, whatever it takes.
 
Personally I dont 'follow' a fat lot of it, apart from the bits that this country bases it's laws and generally accepted bahvior from, or in a roundabout way from.

I think I'm in the vast majority too, CofE and Catholic church attendances are falling year on year.

Islam however, is growing, it's growing in this country, and most worrying is that extremism is growing. I definately didnt see as many people in tradional islamic dress years ago, as I do thesedays. Mosques are being built, islamic schools are increasing. It has to be a concern surely?

I know as a country we are at fault, the war we have got involved in has meant that we are breeding british terrorist and squeezing the self-destruct button.

But the religion of islam, it's heirachy and it's followers in this country have to look in the mirror, but they wont because they are blinkered and their offspring are blinkered.

I dont understand why they cant see that (Birmingham for a good example) has people of many mixes of race and religion and we thrive on it. China town is bustling, we are the home of the balti, we have thriving afro-caribean, sikh, hindu communities, a proud white british community, the biggest St Paddies day outside the USA etc etc etc...

The muslims arent a part of it though, and it's because they are aloof and choose not to integrate.
 
Evidence I have seen this last week or so has given me hope. I think the Mosques realised they were seen as isolated, and have been opening their doors across the Country. The most moving one was that in Woolwich, where Muslims and non-Muslims all united in condemning the attack on Lee.

There is a lot of mistrust of the West, with good grounds if you look at what we've done. It is easy to stir up trouble at the moment, and we have to do our bit to help as well. We have to gain their trust again, just as they must work to gaining ours. The alternative just doesn't bear thinking about.
 
I`m afraid I don`t see any way of stopping people who are willing to give their own lives up whilst killing others.
Their belief in their religion is so strong they are prepared to die for it.
How the hell do you counter that.
They`re not sat in a room ,all together,plotting their murders.They are integrated into society,walking around shopping centres like the rest of us.They are unidentifiable.
I cannot see it getting any better.
 
The only solution is two pronged.

You have to take away the motivation for these terrorists. Stop interfering in Countries and Regions we have no rights in. How would you see it if a Muslim Country deposed our leaders and replaced them with ones they wanted? We have to stop appearing to attack the Muslim cultures around the World.

Second, we have to integrate the communities just as James has mentioned. We need peace loving Muslims to gain a stronger voice, and we need them to feel that they aren't persecuted for that to happen.


I'm sure it's not so, but I do feel I am the only person advocating peace here?
 
You`re certainly not the only person advocating peace Heath and I`m very naive when it comes to the "politics" of this country`s decision to have our armed forces sticking their nose in where it`s not wanted,but I`m sure it`s not as easy as just pulling out of certain areas.There must be pressure on us as a country to be seen to be doing our bit,but at what cost ?
I don`t get the feeling that muslims are persectuted in England.If anything,I think this country bends over backwards to accommodate anyone from any country or religion.
I don`t know enough about religion ,history and politics to be able to work out the solution.I just hope that there are enough people with the required knowledge to sort this bloody mess out.
 
No, it's not too bad here, but we are not the main culprits. However, how would you feel reading the Daily Mail headlines, or even some of the posts here, if you were a peace loving Muslim following the attack? Would you have felt safe? Wouldn't you retreat into your Community?

There is no line that has been crossed - it's more blurred than that, but a halt in the posturing by some Western nations wouldn't hurt!!
 
According to the papers today this guy sat in court and kissed the Koran. He pointed his finger in the air and his brother sitting watching also did the same.

Its also on the BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22748021

He was wearing a white t-shirt and white trousers and blew a kiss to his brother, Jeremiah Adebolajo, in the public gallery before both pointed to the sky.

Michael Adebolajo told the bench he wanted to be known as Mujahid Abu Hamza, and his barrister referred to him by that name.

When he was asked to stand, he said: "May I ask why? May I ask why?" When told it was customary, he replied: "I want to sit."

At the end of the hearing, he told Deputy Chief Magistrate Emma Arbuthnot: "I would like to alleviate the pain, if I may."

He then kissed the Koran and raised his arm into the air.
 
HeathfieldRoad1874 - 4/6/2013 16:06

Evidence I have seen this last week or so has given me hope. I think the Mosques realised they were seen as isolated, and have been opening their doors across the Country. The most moving one was that in Woolwich, where Muslims and non-Muslims all united in condemning the attack on Lee.

There is a lot of mistrust of the West, with good grounds if you look at what we've done. It is easy to stir up trouble at the moment, and we have to do our bit to help as well. We have to gain their trust again, just as they must work to gaining ours. The alternative just doesn't bear thinking about.
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Serious I have to take issue with this. Why would people born in the UK trust "the west" any less than any other minority group? As for those that are not born in the UK, if they don't trust "the west" why move there?

You may be right but I really don't see it as our responsibility. I moved another country and I had to adjust, I didn't expect the Norwegians to adjust to me and I certainly would not have moved here had I felt in any way mistrusted or oppressed.
 
HeathfieldRoad1874 - 4/6/2013 15:54

how would you feel reading the Daily Mail headlines, or even some of the posts here, if you were a peace loving Muslim following the attack? Would you have felt safe? Wouldn't you retreat into your Community?
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The fact that no muslims are on this forum, or likely to read the Daily Mail headlines, sums up perfectly why the problem exists.

They dont have to retreat into their community, they have never yet stepped out of it!
 
James06 - 4/6/2013 16:10

HeathfieldRoad1874 - 4/6/2013 15:54

how would you feel reading the Daily Mail headlines, or even some of the posts here, if you were a peace loving Muslim following the attack? Would you have felt safe? Wouldn't you retreat into your Community?
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The fact that no muslims are on this forum, or likely to read the Daily Mail headlines, sums up perfectly why the problem exists.

They dont have to retreat into their community, they have never yet stepped out of it!
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How do you know there are no Muslims here? Headlines are on full display for all to see - they are hard to miss.
 
Villan Of The North - 4/6/2013 16:06

HeathfieldRoad1874 - 4/6/2013 16:06

Evidence I have seen this last week or so has given me hope. I think the Mosques realised they were seen as isolated, and have been opening their doors across the Country. The most moving one was that in Woolwich, where Muslims and non-Muslims all united in condemning the attack on Lee.

There is a lot of mistrust of the West, with good grounds if you look at what we've done. It is easy to stir up trouble at the moment, and we have to do our bit to help as well. We have to gain their trust again, just as they must work to gaining ours. The alternative just doesn't bear thinking about.
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Serious I have to take issue with this. Why would people born in the UK trust "the west" any less than any other minority group? As for those that are not born in the UK, if they don't trust "the west" why move there?

You may be right but I really don't see it as our responsibility. I moved another country and I had to adjust, I didn't expect the Norwegians to adjust to me and I certainly would not have moved here had I felt in any way mistrusted or oppressed.
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Someone has to take the first step. Why not us. Could Muslims have done more to integrate? Yes, undoubtedly. Could we have done more to help them integrate? You bet ya!!!

The extremism we see today isn't Religious, it is Political. All I am asking is that we don't drag innocent people into this.
 
Villan Of The North - 4/6/2013 11:51

Is Chaudary British born? If so then where should he be deported to?

As for what he has said, yes it is disgusting but in the UK there is something called the right to free speech, as long as he is not libelling anyone or defaming anyone's character then the only other option to use the law against him is on an incitement charge. Dead people can't be defamed or libelled in law so incitement is the only option. Is he actually encouraging anyone to do anything in his comments? Not that I can see.

Sadly I can't see that the law can do anything in this case. It has nothing to do with weak leadership/politicians and everything to do with the rule of law, a law that most of the time we all support as it allows us freedoms.

Chaudary has been very careful with the wording of his bile, he's clearly either not stupid or very well advised.
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i agree he does take notice on how far he can say things vton but do believe half the time the law is at fault.

prehaps the law needs to be updated and this does require strong leadership and someone to tell the europeans to stuff it and their courts.

imagine if he had sprouted his bile in america? whisked off to a cell and facing a treason charge before his feet touched the ground. then again wishing british troops death should be a treasonable offence as they are employed by the crown and as of which receive the queens shilling (or first days pay when i joined up).
 
Villan Of The North - 4/6/2013 11:51

Is Chaudary British born? If so then where should he be deported to?

As for what he has said, yes it is disgusting but in the UK there is something called the right to free speech, as long as he is not libelling anyone or defaming anyone's character then the only other option to use the law against him is on an incitement charge. Dead people can't be defamed or libelled in law so incitement is the only option. Is he actually encouraging anyone to do anything in his comments? Not that I can see.

Sadly I can't see that the law can do anything in this case. It has nothing to do with weak leadership/politicians and everything to do with the rule of law, a law that most of the time we all support as it allows us freedoms.

Chaudary has been very careful with the wording of his bile, he's clearly either not stupid or very well advised.
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Yes he is British born so we have knowhere to send him mind you to use his words a drop in the ocean wouldn't be a bad idea.If my memory serves me right I think he was once a solicitor so just goes to show what sort of person he is to sponge off our benefit system.I really don't care if it's legally right or morally right just lock the bastard up.
 
Heath big respect for seeing this the way it should be seen

I know so many Muslims and they are loving people, willing to help any race or religion

I am truly sickened by what happened to Lee last week, it is a horrible thing to have happened but I have seen good friends of mine show their true colours and spout all sorts of vile racist poison and that has sickened me more

The fact is that the media have gone overboard on this and are feeding the flames of racism. Why is that Chaudary fella all over the front pages right now? there are far more worthy news stories about

I really do fear for the future of this country cos it is heading for oblivion
 
I do not see anyt other way this country ending up other than civil war tbh, when the economy bubble bursts which it will and i mean everything goes bump worthless then we will see real in fighting and unfortunatly you only have to look at history or what is currently happaning in Greece to see what happans when the economies go bump

In Germany before WW2 Hitler blamed the jews and started a holacoust blaming them for buying everything of value jobs etc and in Greece at the momnet the far right have gone extreeme and are hunting any foreign immigrant even the police was shown on Channel 4 news was picking on them, i hope im wrong but for me this was on the cards a long time ago
 
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