Social Media N/G

[Jerryattrick]

What about this graffiti and vandalism, Mark? Good or bad?

Choose your source!
Al Jazeera:
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/i...mbols-torn-race-protests-200603070848424.html

or Daily Mail:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...es-South-torn-amid-George-Floyd-protests.html

For me. Always bad.

1. Everything belongs to the people so why trash stuff that belongs to us all
2. Its all a diversion from the job in hand, eyes on the prize
3. Gives the opposition an easy way to make a diversion from the original issue

 

[Buddha]

For me. Always bad.

1. Everything belongs to the people so why trash stuff that belongs to us all
2. Its all a diversion from the job in hand, eyes on the prize
3. Gives the opposition an easy way to make a diversion from the original issue

You looked at the article(s), Jerry?

 

[valenciagill]

Which UK statues would you tear down/destroy Buddha?
Which historical figures?

 

[markinkent]

What about this graffiti and vandalism, Mark? Good or bad?

Choose your source!
Al Jazeera:
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/i...mbols-torn-race-protests-200603070848424.html

or Daily Mail:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...es-South-torn-amid-George-Floyd-protests.html

Good examples to discuss Buddha. Most people would associate the confederacy with being in favour of slavery and so arguably some people will see the Confederate leaders those statues represent as being associated with slavery.

What I think the people of the south should have decided democratically is whether to keep those statues as a reflection of their history or remove them peacefully years ago.

The Germans dont have statues of Hitler. They have chosen to remove that period from their countries history (in terms of statues and the like)

They shouldn't have been vandalised though. Not if they are legally permitted to be there. People can disagree with what they stood for and try to make the country better in terms of race relations. I would think education of police officers into de-escalation of tension would do more good than vandalism of statues.

I'm not sure we would be happy if people tore down statues of Bomber Harris as an example. Plenty didn't agree with his policy of targeting civilians in WW2. He was a senior leader of the RAF though, fighting a war the best way he thought.

I dont agree that destruction of symbols achieve much. I didn't agree with the US tearing down the statues of Saddam as an example. Let the people of Iraq decide not some triumphant soldier from a foreign land.

Of course you need a Democrat society for all the above. If you dont believe in that then it becomes a free for all.

No doubt some white supremacists will seek to get their revenge on statues of any prominent black leaders.

The cycle continues and both parties achieve FA. Unless you get an outright winner (like WW2) but not sure anyone really wants American Civil War part 2 or maybe some do..........

Off topic but surely the US will see a massive covid-19 spike after all of these protests.

 

[Buddha]

Which UK statues would you tear down/destroy Buddha?
Which historical figures?

Not sure, not given it much thought. You?

Just found this article, 'Set in Stone', it looks like it might be a free to access. Anyway, the abstract sounds interesting:

"This article examines public monuments in London and their relationship to slavery and abolition, a topic that has attracted remarkably little empirical research. It argues that a significant proportion of the individuals commemorated by public statues in London during the long eighteenth century had important links with the slave-trade or plantation slavery and that these links need to be unearthed, contextualized and made explicit. It goes on to analyse those public statues and memorials which explicitly honour British abolitionists and finds that the way they are conceived and executed has generally favoured a conservatively self-congratulatory and defensive political agenda which has consistently marginalized the experience of enslaved Africans. However, the subsequent social lives of such monuments, it is further contended, merit closer investigation since their meaning is not set in stone but can be subverted and transformed according to context."

Maybe I'll read it later. If you'd like to, here's the link:
https://academic.oup.com/hwj/article/64/1/162/600955

 

[Jerryattrick]

You looked at the article(s), Jerry?

I dont agree with any historical monuments or status being damaged or removed. History is history whether we agree with a subject or person. Once again our history belongs to us and we must remember our history good or both.

This is the same as Isis was doing, whats the difference, do you support what they did? Mindless behaviour which does nothing to move us to the target. I am against symbols and things that satisfy childish emotions, I want real change so no diversions.

 

[Wayne.Kerr]

I dont agree with any historical monuments or status being damaged or removed. History is history whether we agree with a subject or person. Once again our history belongs to us and we must remember our history good or both.

This is the same as Isis was doing, whats the difference, do you support what they did? Mindless behaviour which does nothing to move us to the target. I am against symbols and things that satisfy childish emotions, I want real change so no diversions.

What Isis did was mindless and inaccurate interpretation of the Quran like a lot else they did, which by the way Gel Boy thinks is the way of islam.

What you are perhaps is missing the point that we might be seeing the start of a revolution not unfortunate delinquency

 

[Buddha]

Good examples to discuss Buddha. Most people would associate the confederacy with being in favour of slavery and so arguably some people will see the Confederate leaders those statues represent as being associated with slavery.

What I think the people of the south should have decided democratically is whether to keep those statues as a reflection of their history or remove them peacefully years ago.

The Germans dont have statues of Hitler. They have chosen to remove that period from their countries history (in terms of statues and the like)

They shouldn't have been vandalised though. Not if they are legally permitted to be there. People can disagree with what they stood for and try to make the country better in terms of race relations. I would think education of police officers into de-escalation of tension would do more good than vandalism of statues.

I'm not sure we would be happy if people tore down statues of Bomber Harris as an example. Plenty didn't agree with his policy of targeting civilians in WW2. He was a senior leader of the RAF though, fighting a war the best way he thought.

I dont agree that destruction of symbols achieve much. I didn't agree with the US tearing down the statues of Saddam as an example. Let the people of Iraq decide not some triumphant soldier from a foreign land.

Of course you need a Democrat society for all the above. If you dont believe in that then it becomes a free for all.

No doubt some white supremacists will seek to get their revenge on statues of any prominent black leaders.

The cycle continues and both parties achieve FA. Unless you get an outright winner (like WW2) but not sure anyone really wants American Civil War part 2 or maybe some do..........

Off topic but surely the US will see a massive covid-19 spike after all of these protests.

Thanks Mark. Good points there.

I think that there is sometimes value in destroying symbols of oppression but I agree that often it achieves little. I certainly agree with you about US tearing down the Sadam statue. But then that was all a bit of a publicity stunt anyway. Check that one out Mark, watch the footage from across the other side of the square!

 

[Jerryattrick]

Not sure, not given it much thought. You?

Just found this article, 'Set in Stone', it looks like it might be a free to access. Anyway, the abstract sounds interesting:

"This article examines public monuments in London and their relationship to slavery and abolition, a topic that has attracted remarkably little empirical research. It argues that a significant proportion of the individuals commemorated by public statues in London during the long eighteenth century had important links with the slave-trade or plantation slavery and that these links need to be unearthed, contextualized and made explicit. It goes on to analyse those public statues and memorials which explicitly honour British abolitionists and finds that the way they are conceived and executed has generally favoured a conservatively self-congratulatory and defensive political agenda which has consistently marginalized the experience of enslaved Africans. However, the subsequent social lives of such monuments, it is further contended, merit closer investigation since their meaning is not set in stone but can be subverted and transformed according to context."

Maybe I'll read it later. If you'd like to, here's the link:
https://academic.oup.com/hwj/article/64/1/162/600955

Its identity politics waffle. Makes absolutely no difference to reality only to satisfy someones intellectual hand job. These things do a job as we can then teach the history behind things.
Maybe we should destroy anything Roman or Viking or Norman as they were all invaders, rapists, enslavers etc.

 

[Buddha]

I dont agree with any historical monuments or status being damaged or removed. History is history whether we agree with a subject or person. Once again our history belongs to us and we must remember our history good or both.

This is the same as Isis was doing, whats the difference, do you support what they did? Mindless behaviour which does nothing to move us to the target. I am against symbols and things that satisfy childish emotions, I want real change so no diversions.

No, I definitely didn't agree with what ISIS were doing. Not any of it. Including the destruction of the Minarets, that was appalling.

But what about the statues of Hit;er in Germany that Mark said were removed? Should they have remained standing?

Listen, I know this aint a clear cut thing. I can see both sides to this one.

I also want real change and not diversions!

 

[markinkent]

Thanks Mark. Good points there.

I think that there is sometimes value in destroying symbols of oppression but I agree that often it achieves little. I certainly agree with you about US tearing down the Sadam statue. But then that was all a bit of a publicity stunt anyway. Check that one out Mark, watch the footage from across the other side of the square!

Did you forget the link ?

 

[valenciagill]

What you are perhaps is missing the point that we might be seeing the start of a revolution not unfortunate delinquency

You almost sound like Buddha , almost wanting revolution but not actually saying it.
TBF to Buddha , he would say it.
Revolution could only happen if there was a overwhelming majority in favour.
When there's not it would lead to civil war between the two sides.
Who do you think the losers would be ?

 

[Jerryattrick]

What Isis did was mindless and inaccurate interpretation of the Quran like a lot else they did, which by the way Gel Boy thinks is the way of islam.

What you are perhaps is missing the point that we might be seeing the start of a revolution not unfortunate delinquency

Just what are you talking about. I dont miss anything and have lived through the same type of events. Just when do you thing it changes the issue whether it was a revolution or delinquency. History is history.
Tell me when this sort of behaviour in a revolution has achieved anything extra towards the goal? Obviously the situation where a dictatorship is being overthrown in a violent revolution then because it is in the great heat of battle.
These other things are historical and irrelevant to political struggle, good to keep your useful idiots excited but a diversion.

 

[Jerryattrick]

No, I definitely didn't agree with what ISIS were doing. Not any of it. Including the destruction of the Minarets, that was appalling.

But what about the statues of Hit;er in Germany that Mark said were removed? Should they have remained standing?

Listen, I know this aint a clear cut thing. I can see both sides to this one.

I also want real change and not diversions!

 

[Buddha]

Did you forget the link ?

No, sorry. I saw it years back.

But watch this instead:

 

[ThreeSixes]

What Isis did was mindless and inaccurate interpretation of the Quran like a lot else they did, which by the way Gel Boy thinks is the way of islam.

ISIS and WayneKerr disagreeing on the interpretation of the Quran!

 

[Jerryattrick]

No, I definitely didn't agree with what ISIS were doing. Not any of it. Including the destruction of the Minarets, that was appalling.

But what about the statues of Hit;er in Germany that Mark said were removed? Should they have remained standing?

Listen, I know this aint a clear cut thing. I can see both sides to this one.

I also want real change and not diversions!

All of these things can be argued in all directions and at times I have probably held all views on a topic.
Been disappointed with the results of many revolutions that turned out worse for the people than what was replaced.
Seeing people dying for someone else's benefit has worn me down but my comments today may be different the next day lol.

Which modern revolution or uprising has been an improvement for the actual people. Either there has been foreign interference or a minority have replace the old oppressors with new ones. Even Vietnam was a war to remove an occupier.

On the black panthers:
Have you read ‘soledad brother’, excellent book giving insight to the movement.

 

[Buddha]

All of these things can be argued in all directions and at times I have probably held all views on a topic.
Been disappointed with the results of many revolutions that turned out worse for the people than what was replaced.
Seeing people dying for someone else's benefit has worn me down but my comments today may be different the next day lol.

Which modern revolution or uprising has been an improvement for the actual people. Either there has been foreign interference or a minority have replace the old oppressors with new ones. Even Vietnam was a war to remove an occupier.

On the black panthers:
Have you read ‘soledad brother’, excellent book giving insight to the movement.

They're not perfect but what about the Zapatistas? What about the Autonomous Administration of North East Syria (Rojava)? What about Catalonia 1936? Paris Commune 1871? Mahknovia/Free Territory 1918-1921?

Re the Panthers, no, I've not read that. Actually not read anything about them for ages but had a real bout of interest years ago and read the autobiographies of both Bobby Seale's and Huey P Newton. Some other stuff too, including Eldridge Cleaver's Post prison writings and speeches.

 

[Jerryattrick]

They're not perfect but what about the Zapatistas? What about the Autonomous Administration of North East Syria (Rojava)? What about Catalonia 1936? Paris Commune 1871? Mahknovia/Free Territory 1918-1921?

Re the Panthers, no, I've not read that. Actually not read anything about them for ages but had a real bout of interest years ago and read the autobiographies of both Bobby Seale's and Huey P Newton. Some other stuff too, including Eldridge Cleaver's Post prison writings and speeches.

Paris 1871 i researched a long time ago. Main thing I remember is that Marx had to change some of his theories based on the fact that it was not a predicted worker revolution as many working class were by then in fact middle class and reacted differently.
Hard for most marxists or his opponents to grasp but his theories were just that and he changed his theories based on additional facts and events.

The most interesting thing to readcon the panthers now is the release of locked papers showing in detail the fbi files with all the corruption, instigation and pay off of informers and infiltrators.

 

[Wayne.Kerr]

The US Defense Secretary does not agree with invoking the Insurrection Act (use of the military) to suppress demonstrations across the nation. I guess Trump will be replacing him fairly soon.