Racism in football/booing/the knee | Page 2 | Vital Football

Racism in football/booing/the knee

Platypus

Vital Squad Member
#21
Which then begs the question, if the fans don't understand and it can't be about Marxism and anti-capitalism, then why was the original promotion all about BLM/the fist with the group heavily promoted in the process where they raised millions.

Shouldn't the players educate themselves on what the knee has been associated with or is that fans fault as well?
You've got the tail wagging the dog here. Black Lives Matter is an idea, adopted as a slogan, then adopted as the name of an organisation (many organisations actually but people only focus on the one where a founder is a Marxist). The players are promoting that idea, not an American fundraising organisation that shares its name with hundreds of others.
 

DeanoVilla

One Bloody Number
#22
Kick It Out has been pathetic for over a decade. Merely paying lip service to the issue of racism in football and doing next to sod all about it.

Now people are labelling them as the old great anti-racism group? Give me strength.
 
#24
As you know, I wouldn't boo. But it is no good taking a political gesture and then giving it another definition. It was clearly attributed to BLM. So now you see the reaction to them is mixed, why not change, like other teams/other sports have, so that the message isn't lost amongst all this nonsense? Especially the fist gesture.

It is 6 of one, half a dozen of another and in the meantime, the message is totally lost.

You can clearly see the message is lost, because most of the debate is about the knee, not the underlying problem.

So no, maybe they don't understand, due to the mixed messages it sends. And you could say, maybe the authorities that backed BLM, as opposed to the much more effective kick racism out, also don't understand the use of the gesture.
Spot on mate, I wish I could get my point over like you
 
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david-avfc

Vital Football Hero
#25
The problem is that the more they take the knee the more these and others will boo.
I hope at the next game they kneel until the booing stops.. and if that means they don’t start the game for 10 minutes then so be it. That would certainly get the message through - we won’t play until you fuck off.

There is no doubt in my mind that this is racism. Half of these people don’t know what Marxism is let alone articulate what exactly they don’t agree with it to the extent they will boo their own country.

A year ago with the riots in London I agree that would put many fans off the campaign but the football stance has remained consistent despite the organisation that is “BLM” fading. The players have explained why they are doing it too and clearly it is not some kind of political movement.
 

mike_field

Vital Football Legend
#26
You've got the tail wagging the dog here. Black Lives Matter is an idea, adopted as a slogan, then adopted as the name of an organisation (many organisations actually but people only focus on the one where a founder is a Marxist). The players are promoting that idea, not an American fundraising organisation that shares its name with hundreds of others.
No the tail wagging was done by the media and football without doing their homework as they promoted the organisations under the guise of a slogan. Turning on fans now because they can't possibly be wrong is lazy and misses the point.

It was purely UK based and heavily promoted before the media twigged and checked their twitter feed and BLM promotion slowly disappeared and they've left both fans and players (who haven't done their homework) on opposite sides of the divide - whilst they of course can happily now report on it and get all angry again.

Whether players like it or not, they have dug in behind the association (defund, anti capitalist etc etc) and plenty of people understandably won't see past that, especially now they are being painted as the ones in the wrong.

Change the association to the group funded by football to be the face of anti discrimination, and this 99% goes away over night and people can get back to the real issue at hand.
 

mike_field

Vital Football Legend
#27
Nice and inoffensive and completely ignorable. That's the kind of anti-racist campaign people like.
So if players don't want empty gestures, why are they not turning on football itself to beef up and give teeth to their own self founded organisation?

Wouldn't that achieve more?
 

The Fear

A Wise Man (once sat next to him)
#28
Kick It Out has been pathetic for over a decade. Merely paying lip service to the issue of racism in football and doing next to sod all about it.

Now people are labelling them as the old great anti-racism group? Give me strength.
Not sure people are though Deano? I might move all this into another thread actually, as it is an important debate.

Not sure they have been pathetic, I'd need far more information from those who run that campaign, and those opposed, and those in the firing line (the black players and staff). If they have put ten years hard work into this, then I am not sure it should be dismissed like that.

I've not heard any racism at Villa Park, apart from that cringeworthy Konsa song, and my old mucka Naz, who had a racist incident against him. But that might just be my luck, where I've sat. I would call it out if I heard it. I know you would. That is the way to tackle these shits.

The other problem, on social media, I have no idea how we arrest it, because the big companies are doing fuck all. (As I illustrated with the post I reported to facebook)

I guess really this has all got a bit monty python, people worrying about names rather than the issue. That is my point. The People's Front of Judea, or Judean People's Front.
 

The Fear

A Wise Man (once sat next to him)
#29
I know there are new initiatives coming to make it easier to report discrimination at games. But will people ring / text numbers whilst at a match, if indeed, they can even get a signal?

Can't really believe in the 21st century, this is still a thing. I hate mankind!
 

Platypus

Vital Squad Member
#31
No the tail wagging was done by the media and football without doing their homework as they promoted the organisations under the guise of a slogan. Turning on fans now because they can't possibly be wrong is lazy and misses the point.

It was purely UK based and heavily promoted before the media twigged and checked their twitter feed and BLM promotion slowly disappeared and they've left both fans and players (who haven't done their homework) on opposite sides of the divide - whilst they of course can happily now report on it and get all angry again.

Whether players like it or not, they have dug in behind the association (defund, anti capitalist etc etc) and plenty of people understandably won't see past that, especially now they are being painted as the ones in the wrong.

Change the association to the group funded by football to be the face of anti discrimination, and this 99% goes away over night and people can get back to the real issue at hand.
Come on, Mike - like those fans at Millwall back when the booing first started were fine with anti-racism, but Marx's views on the proletariat seizing the means of production are just a bridge too far.

We're in this topsy turvy world where we're trying to say we know better what's being protested than the people who are actually doing the protesting.
"We're against racism"
"No you're not, you're promoting communism - Boooooooo!"

We've been here so many times before and all it is is just yet another instance of telling people that however they're protesting racism it's always the wrong way. Non-violent, dignified, not actually disruptive - "No, not like that".
 

"Merd"

Vital 1st Team Regular
#32
Sorry, personkind...
Funny to think that none of us are born racist/sexist/any-other-ist, yet unlearning learned behaviour is incredibly difficult.

Back to taking the knee, it's a powerful statement in the US during the National Anthem and targeted at a specific incident - it's something that fits with their culture. It's kind of silly when we do it at every sporting event and it loses it's impact. I think you're correct JF and it needs to be called out, immediately, every time - but it's easier to hide in the crowd.
 

"Merd"

Vital 1st Team Regular
#34
How about cheering a proper bloke like Marvelous Nakamba, who has done something positive put his money back into his community.to help some real underprivileged people. Someone prepared to give something.
Better than making token gestures before speeding off in the Range Rover back to our Million-pound homes like most of of them,
https://mnakambafoundation.org/
Mings has done something similar with his academy.....I think there's a lot more of this philanthropy around now than we know or even care to know - e.g. the proposed inner city academy.
 

mike_field

Vital Football Legend
#35
Come on, Mike - like those fans at Millwall back when the booing first started were fine with anti-racism, but Marx's views on the proletariat seizing the means of production are just a bridge too far.

We're in this topsy turvy world where we're trying to say we know better what's being protested than the people who are actually doing the protesting.
"We're against racism"
"No you're not, you're promoting communism - Boooooooo!"

We've been here so many times before and all it is is just yet another instance of telling people that however they're protesting racism it's always the wrong way. Non-violent, dignified, not actually disruptive - "No, not like that".
Read any of the Millwall or other clubs forums ahead of the booing when it was known players would take the knee and after? It was laid out clearly, concisely, and backed up to the hilt by plenty who emailed the PL, The EFL, Sky, BBC etc to implore them to stop promoting the organisation and unite around KIO, quoting BLM's own actual words to prove the point and they were quick to turn on their own and call them out when a comment was clearly racist. Obviously that factors in, some are no doubt using it as an excuse to show their true colours - but by the definitions now doing the rounds, I'm clearly racist because I can't have the freedom to not support an action that by definition stands for a divisive group I can't back.

It's why my views haven't changed since the start really - it started with good intentions yes but was always warped and was always going to be an own goal and be more divisive which is thoroughly counter productive. The press and footballers can't just arbitrarily decide to now move the goalposts and rebrand it because we no longer have BLM flying everywhere in grounds.

It's now a battle over what the knee stands for and apparently fans just have to accept that means whatever they now decide to say it stands for rather than what it actually truly began as.

I'd say my liberal lefty leanings are well known on the forum when it comes to all sorts of topics, but I've never supported it, can't support it, and I'd hoped it would be one game only and then move on and push KIO and make the moment count to actually give them some proper teeth simply because of the undercurrents that were well known, but ignored by the media and those in the game.
 

danvilla2

Vital Football Legend
#37
I was at the game and it wasn’t a minority. It was absolutely disgusting how loud it was. I can’t imagine why anyone would be so passionately against an anti-racism message that they’d boo they’re own team, even their own country. It would surely impact and distract anyone with a working brain, even I was taken aback by it and I’m white and nowhere as engaged with it as Mings who has been prominent with the campaign.

The experience on Sunday has definitely changed my view of racism within the game and there’s simply no debate they need to keep sending the message through until it sinks into these idiots’ brains or they fuck off and stay away from football entirely
My point on Mings was I don’t want him to be distracted or angered by the off the field issues, which affect his performance. If he has a bad game in an important game because this is playing on his mind and makes a howler, we’ll hear about the error for decades and his career will be ruined. The booing will not be mentioned so widely in the future I suspect.

I personally struggle with what the knee symbolises, perhaps I need to research it and am ignorant but I can’t get a clear answer from googling it especially give. some black players and clubs have stopped doing it.

That said which Ive said before, it’s moronic to boo - just stand there quietly at least out of respect for the message even if you don’t like the kneeling gesture for whatever reason.
 

McParlandTheGreat

Vital Football Hero
#39
BLM the political movement is now a minor part of it. The slogan captures something which appeals to a wide range of people who are appalled by the racism which goes on. And supports those on the receiving end of it. I'm pleased Southgate unequivocally supports those taking the knee.

Those booing may claim they aren't racist, but what they are attacking is any attempt to publicize the racism that exists. And that is racist.