Post Brexit (n/g) | Page 22 | Vital Football

Post Brexit (n/g)

jokerman said:
You fellows are arguing over yesterday's papers, except for Buddha and Gill de France who are basically saying people should be different -which is almost certainly true but also useless. Borders are not some capitalist divide and rule operation. Indeed, the entire nation state set up is a constraint on the operations of capital as a system, even if individual capitalists can do very well out of it. If the capitalist class could re-design the world from scratch, they would not have borders. Borders arise out of people being basically communitarian rather than cosmopolitan. Caring for each other is a damned strain, and we only manage it by some way of delineating those who we have to knock ourselves out for and those we do not. The form may change, bands, tribes, empires, states, syndicalist communes -whatever- but the principle persists. The EU is not some cosmopolitan project trying to beat the odds with new ways -it's simply another iteration -the clue is in the old title. I happen to think it's just another state building project -except on poor foundations, hence its ludicrous contortions on anything important like being an effective security community and its steady decline as a global economic actor, but I accept this can be contested.

The Russians are coming, or at least trying very hard to. Several European countries will be pushed into recession by their gas shenanigans, and the EU is struggling to maintain a common front on both standing up to them and paying the bill for doing so. Germany, at last, is in the hot seat on that. All sorts of pressures are building to ease up on Russia and let them have what they want. If I've got my EU right, then that is what is going to happen -is already happening -not our fight, Russia has a case, not playing America's games etc etc. Ukraine may go -Lavrov, who I used to respect and still take seriously- says they want Zelensky out and want more, if not all, of Ukraine- but then what next? Everything negotiable up to and including the Oder? Probably not, but the idea that once Ukraine is eaten, the rest of the EU herd can settle back down to grazing and bickering over its shrinking field seems a bit of a stretch. Europe (and I mean Europe) is facing a real challenge from Russia to everything it stands for and the EU is a useless and sapping distraction preventing its constituent parts from facing what they need to do.

I'm on to my second cup of tea, and then I'll go and have a lie down, so don't anyone ask me if I'm feeling ok.
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That's a good post, jokerman. You're speaking a lot of sense (apart from the bit about something being certainly true but useless ;) ).

Can I just say also that I disagree with you about the borders thing and choosing who to care for and who to not care for. The answer is no nations, no borders, one planet, one people, one love. Or in other words, we all have to care for each other. All of us.

But with regard to the EU and Europe and the other stuff, yeah, you're right. I'm no supporter of the EU. I wanted the UK to remain in the EU, but not because I think the EU is a good thing. What I did think was a good think was my right to be free to travel and work anyway within the EU (it should be the entire world, for me and for everyone!).

The other thing I thought was good (and still is until the Tories change it, which they're planning to do) is the ECHR. I regarded that as a kind of safeguard against the UK government, which all adult life has been either Tory or Tory Lite (i.e. New Labour) and which naturally I don't trust. Both of these things relate not only to my politics but also directly to my lifestyle.

Enjoy your lie down.
 
GillsBluenose said:
Good summary, Jokerman.

I would add that I think Zelensky becoming chummy with Boris was down to the fact that we are less reliant on Russian energy than most of the EU, so we could more easily back Ukraine.

Ukraine have punched well above their weight during the war and I hope we continue to back them to the hilt. At some point, aggressive bullies like Putin need to be given a bloody nose, rather than being allowed to continue to threaten, provoke and taunt.

If the EU is foolish enough to try to oust Zelensky and persuade Ukraine that all they have fought for is in vain, it may present another conflict between the EU and the UK where we need to stand full behind Ukraine and against tyranny.

I say "foolish enough" because there is no way that Putin will stop there and the likes of Finland and Poland will be inviting similar aggression.

Most military experts agree that Putin has made many miscalculations, the war has not gone well for him and his troops are mostly drunk so that the best he can do is try to save face and "claim" some form of victory. The Russians are therefore hardly in a position of formidable strength apart from their natural resources.
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exactly when did the uk stand behind anyone and against tyranny?
we always act in our own self interests or those of our elites - just as did any other empire.
 
GillsBluenose said:
Most military experts agree that Putin has made many miscalculations, the war has not gone well for him and his troops are mostly drunk so that the best he can do is try to save face and "claim" some form of victory. The Russians are therefore hardly in a position of formidable strength apart from their natural resources.
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I wonder if that`s over-egging the Ptichye Moloko a bit too much, GB.
Anyone asserting that Putin`s Russia isn`t much of a threat (based mostly on events in Ukraine) might be missing some wood through some trees.
A Liz Truss led government is a worry in that regard.
 
Buddha said:
One world, val, there's only one world. People gotta co-operate and look after each other and our environment. Otherwise everyone is fucked.
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And therein lies the problem.

Many people can’t be trusted to look after each other during a pandemic (not gathering when asked, wearing a mask, etc)

Many people can’t be trusted not to panic buy items when if they stuck to usual buying habits there is enough for all (petrol, sanitiser, pasta, bog rolls)

Quite how these people are supposed to all live together, working together, all for a common good in a perfect idea of non-consumer utopia where everyone is equal is a beautiful idea.

But a total delusion.
 
Jerryattrick said:
exactly when did the uk stand behind anyone and against tyranny?
we always act in our own self interests or those of our elites - just as did any other empire.
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I agree most actions of states are driven by self-interest, although self-interest is a broad concept which can be used to describe whatever drove Albert Schweitzer as well as whatever drove Hitler (and captures neither), but there are some examples

1939 Polish guarantees and declaring war -nuts by any self-interested calculation, plus no backtracking in the phony war even though Poland was lost.

1940. By any measure other than a moral one, the smart thing to do was to accept Berlin's offer -they get Europe, we keep the Empire. We didn't trust them, of course, but a deal would have still bought a breathing space. And we didn't know how quickly the Empire would disappear, so the cold calculation would have backfired. But we kept going, and the Dominions backed us even though they were unthreatened, because somehow they'd all figured out that it was the right thing to do, even though the war effort destroyed much of the foundation of Britain's wealth and its position as a global power.

I'm open to being persuaded that 1982 was about a great deal more than Thatcher's survival, although that was crucial.
 
Rob_b100 said:
And therein lies the problem.

Many people can’t be trusted to look after each other during a pandemic (not gathering when asked, wearing a mask, etc)

Many people can’t be trusted not to panic buy items when if they stuck to usual buying habits there is enough for all (petrol, sanitiser, pasta, bog rolls)

Quite how these people are supposed to all live together, working together, all for a common good in a perfect idea of non-consumer utopia where everyone is equal is a beautiful idea.

But a total delusion.
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I have an issue with those who spout some childlike Utopia.
People get in the way.
Human nature.
You can wish for no borders, everyone helping each other and peace and loving, but unfortunately human beings are hard wired to compete.
And in any competition there will be winners and losers.

In the words of Me and Bobby McGee.
Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose.
 
GillsBluenose said:
From Andrew Neil's column on Saturday:
"The EU is about to go very badly wrong.
It is now on the brink of recession and another Eurozone currency crisis looms. It's a double whammy that will be all the more painful and prolonged because of Putin's mounting blackmail over Russian Energy supplies, which threatens to condemn Europe's major economies to a slump.
Of course, the EU has survived setbacks inthe past from the first Eurozone crisis of 2011-12 to the migrant crisis of 2015. But not without great economic pain (including mass unemployment among young folk) and much political disruption.
Now it faces the biggest crisis of all at a time when it is entirely bereft of leadership. Its much-vaunted unity in the face of adversity will be tested to the limit. It is already beginning to crack.
The European Central Bank belatedly increased interest rates this week for the first time in 11 years, way behind the BOE and the US Federal Reserve, both of which have been raising rates for some time now. It is too little, too late.
The euro has already slumped to parity with the dollar and Eurozone inflation averages 8.6% and rising.
Much of the EU is in the grip of stagflation. As inflation soars, growth in the three biggest economies - Germany, France and Italy - has slowed or stalled"

Clearly Shangri-La compared to our armageddon.
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Quoting Andrew Neill from the person who backed up Jeremy Corbyn. Lol.
 
jokerman said:
You fellows are arguing over yesterday's papers, except for Buddha and Gill de France who are basically saying people should be different -which is almost certainly true but also useless. Borders are not some capitalist divide and rule operation. Indeed, the entire nation state set up is a constraint on the operations of capital as a system, even if individual capitalists can do very well out of it. If the capitalist class could re-design the world from scratch, they would not have borders. Borders arise out of people being basically communitarian rather than cosmopolitan. Caring for each other is a damned strain, and we only manage it by some way of delineating those who we have to knock ourselves out for and those we do not. The form may change, bands, tribes, empires, states, syndicalist communes -whatever- but the principle persists. The EU is not some cosmopolitan project trying to beat the odds with new ways -it's simply another iteration -the clue is in the old title. I happen to think it's just another state building project -except on poor foundations, hence its ludicrous contortions on anything important like being an effective security community and its steady decline as a global economic actor, but I accept this can be contested.

The Russians are coming, or at least trying very hard to. Several European countries will be pushed into recession by their gas shenanigans, and the EU is struggling to maintain a common front on both standing up to them and paying the bill for doing so. Germany, at last, is in the hot seat on that. All sorts of pressures are building to ease up on Russia and let them have what they want. If I've got my EU right, then that is what is going to happen -is already happening -not our fight, Russia has a case, not playing America's games etc etc. Ukraine may go -Lavrov, who I used to respect and still take seriously- says they want Zelensky out and want more, if not all, of Ukraine- but then what next? Everything negotiable up to and including the Oder? Probably not, but the idea that once Ukraine is eaten, the rest of the EU herd can settle back down to grazing and bickering over its shrinking field seems a bit of a stretch. Europe (and I mean Europe) is facing a real challenge from Russia to everything it stands for and the EU is a useless and sapping distraction preventing its constituent parts from facing what they need to do.

I'm on to my second cup of tea, and then I'll go and have a lie down, so don't anyone ask me if I'm feeling ok.
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Nicely put jokerman but NATO remains the bulwark rather than the EU, whose members and ourselves have the most to lose. I agree that the European way of life and beliefs are under serious threat and the presence of small, sparsely poulated, ex soviet states on its borders gives Putin easy options. Add in minority populations of Russian speakers and an established history of mischief making and it's obvious why NATO has been exercising in Baltic countries.

Brexiter or Remainer it's hard to see Brexit as anything but a Russian win in this scenario. I have little faith that our support for Ukraine outguns our inter European squabbling over border posts and stuff. Our actual support is more solidarity and posture anyway because the decisive weaponry is American and it's US decisions that will likely count.
 
Gills 58 said:
Quoting Andrew Neill from the person who backed up Jeremy Corbyn. Lol.
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I believe in Neil's facts and statistics and Corbyn's sentiments and principles.

Neil interviewed Corbyn on many occasions and Corbyn is a Eurosceptic as well as a proper socialist.
 
GillsBluenose said:
Ultimately, the recent problems at Dover are going to make a lot of families not bother going across for their holidays in future.

Hopefully, the French are not bothered about the loss of tourism and that should actually help climate change with less miles travelled so maybe it will suit everyone.
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Not sure traffic bumper to bumper helps climate change. It will ensure that more flights are booked when they are available.The congestion through Kent will lead to more fumes not less.
May I suggest a few people try going via Portsmouth. Personally I find the whole experience far more civilised. Arriving in Brittany or Normandy with almost no traffic and a far more attractive area.Following the coast down south from there there are many wonderful places.
 
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chris who said:
Not sure traffic bumper to bumper helps climate change. It will ensure that more flights are booked when they are available.The congestion through Kent will lead to more fumes not less.
May I suggest a few people try going via Portsmouth. Personally I find the whole experience far more civilised. Arriving in Brittany on Normandy with almost no traffic and a far more attractive area.Following the coast down south from there there are many wonderful places.
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I was actually taking a more long term view. There was a news story this morning about the upsurge in mostly domestic camping and caravanning.

Maybe I am wrong, but I would suggest that those finding themselves bumper to bumper over the past couple of weeks must have had time to reflect and question why they put themselves through it, and whether it may be better to consider domestic breaks in future.

There seemed to be no problem with traffic flowing in the other direction so it should not affect our own level of tourists and visitors, who we clearly make feel welcome.
 
jogills said:
Brexiter or Remainer it's hard to see Brexit as anything but a Russian win in this scenario. I have little faith that our support for Ukraine outguns our inter European squabbling over border posts and stuff. Our actual support is more solidarity and posture anyway because the decisive weaponry is American and it's US decisions that will likely count.
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This reads like yet another "glass half empty" meme.

Or perhaps the story attributed to Nelson of putting his telescope to his blind eye so he couldn't see what he didn't want to see !

Or anything bad - attribute to Brexit !

Except in the case of Russia, where is its "win" ?
A wide range of commentators seem to agree that "Russia" has united NATO / EU / the West....
...which is what I inferred from your opening remark.....
jogills said:
...... NATO remains the bulwark rather than the EU, whose members and ourselves have the most to lose. I agree that the European way of life and beliefs are under serious threat and the presence of small, sparsely poulated, ex soviet states on its borders gives Putin easy options. Add in minority populations of Russian speakers and an established history of mischief making and it's obvious why NATO has been exercising in Baltic countries.
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And Russia's supposed "win" has achieved an increase in military spending (that Trump sought...hiss,boo !).

It also provides a welcome jolt to some mad policies driven by the NetZero fanatics.

Instead of focusing on "NetZero" regardless of negative impacts, people are instead focusing on energy security.
In the short term that may mean local gas and a tiny bit of coal....
...but thankfully attention has been drawn to the necessity for storage of energy. e.g.. Hydrogen, batteries and hydro. (water pumped up hills)


Surely the positive message is....
Brexit did not end co-operation over matters of mutual or vital interest ?
If anything co-operation has been re-invigorated.(y)
 
chris who said:
Not sure traffic bumper to bumper helps climate change. It will ensure that more flights are booked when they are available.The congestion through Kent will lead to more fumes not less.
May I suggest a few people try going via Portsmouth. Personally I find the whole experience far more civilised. Arriving in Brittany on Normandy with almost no traffic and a far more attractive area.Following the coast down south from there there are many wonderful places.
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Today's reports from Dover say 30 minutes waiting for the French passport check (and all booths manned)...
...which given that 99% cannot then drive straight on a ferry seems OK.

So maybe the problem was a convergence of:
- busiest Saturday of the year
- French border staff not in place (6 out of 12 booths)


That said, I'd be interested in views around whether the M20 eastbound really needed to be closed for cars.
Is it my imagination or does the M20 now have fixed lane barriers (so reduced flexibility) ?
 
jogills said:
Nicely put jokerman but NATO remains the bulwark rather than the EU, whose members and ourselves have the most to lose. I agree that the European way of life and beliefs are under serious threat and the presence of small, sparsely poulated, ex soviet states on its borders gives Putin easy options. Add in minority populations of Russian speakers and an established history of mischief making and it's obvious why NATO has been exercising in Baltic countries.

Brexiter or Remainer it's hard to see Brexit as anything but a Russian win in this scenario. I have little faith that our support for Ukraine outguns our inter European squabbling over border posts and stuff. Our actual support is more solidarity and posture anyway because the decisive weaponry is American and it's US decisions that will likely count.
Click to expand...

For now, but Europe/NATO cannot count on the US and ought not to. The US has its own issues at the moment, and if a Trumper or a liberal Democrat replaces Biden, the US commitment to both NATO and Ukraine will likely soften. The European great powers simply have to do more on defense, otherwise they will be like the Eloi feasted on by the Morlocks.
 
Jerryattrick said:
exactly when did the uk stand behind anyone and against tyranny?
we always act in our own self interests or those of our elites - just as did any other empire.
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Depends on how cynical you are. Of course we are protecting our own interests as well but Zelezny did not have to single out Johnson for praise and thanks. I don't think he has even done the same with sleepy Joe, which is surprising if it is the US that is providing all the weaponry.
 
jokerman said:
For now, but Europe/NATO cannot count on the US and ought not to. The US has its own issues at the moment, and if a Trumper or a liberal Democrat replaces Biden, the US commitment to both NATO and Ukraine will likely soften. The European great powers simply have to do more on defense, otherwise they will be like the Eloi feasted on by the Morlocks.
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I never got the impression that Trump was anti NATO.
I think his gripe was that the USA was picking up the bill while nearly every European country wasn’t fulfilling their military obligations.
Russias invasion of their neighbour has certainly woke Europe up.
 
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