EU stay or go ?
- Thread starter Nick Real Deal
- Start date
Nick Real Deal
Vital Football Legend
I am trying to keep the terrorist threat separate from the EU issue but the attacks in Brussels make it difficult.
I am looking at the EU primarily from a financial side. We already know our Sovereignty is stronger out. Security has to be better out, deal with the problem, no more influx of undesirables.
How will people decide ? Vote out because Cameronites want in and they want David out for Boris.
Vote in because financially we are safer or reverse.
Vote out to close out borders and deal with just our problem.
What is the soundest reasoning either way ?
I am looking at the EU primarily from a financial side. We already know our Sovereignty is stronger out. Security has to be better out, deal with the problem, no more influx of undesirables.
How will people decide ? Vote out because Cameronites want in and they want David out for Boris.
Vote in because financially we are safer or reverse.
Vote out to close out borders and deal with just our problem.
What is the soundest reasoning either way ?
Spursex
Alert Team
Until we once again establish either full border controls in the whole of the EU or here, we can never limit our exposure.
The EU and especially Germany have been incredibly naive, and with the leverage that Turkey now has, no doubt we're soon be doing their bidding and letting them become an accession state too - much sooner than most think.
It's a mess and it's a mess of our own making, unless we take back a semblance of control we're never solve it.
The EU and especially Germany have been incredibly naive, and with the leverage that Turkey now has, no doubt we're soon be doing their bidding and letting them become an accession state too - much sooner than most think.
It's a mess and it's a mess of our own making, unless we take back a semblance of control we're never solve it.
The EU is sinking and the utterly insane decision at this point in time to allow Turkey accession will just mean an even bigger hole below the EU Project waterline. But as to whether to vote to stay or go?......just suppose we weren't already in it and instead the vote was whether we should join. Would anyone in their right mind look at what's currently going on in the EU and think, I like what I see and want to be part of it? I think not.
Nick Real Deal
Vital Football Legend
If there is any financial gain for being in , is that what it comes down to. Are we voting for ourselves or future generations ?
Is money the be all and end all. ? Are we that shallow ?
Is money the be all and end all. ? Are we that shallow ?
Spursex
Alert Team
No one in their right mind would vote to join it.
No doubt that if we do manage to get without we'll have a lot of exit expenses (although the treaties show remarkable little detail when it comes to this) there will be other significant gains though, for example we will immediately be excluded from the secret negotiations of the proposed TTIP (the EU excluded any EU citizen from knowing any details at all and only had to do something when a smalll damaging proportion was leaked to the public); but from what we know this new 'secret' deal will devastate large parst of environmental policy as we won't be able to refuse GMO grown food/seeds and high use antibiotic beef and lamb - and one of the keys is that the US are insisting that 'no country of origin' be displayed on food labelling.
The EU is selling us and our health down the river, and we'll never ever be able to debate or argue with it or vote out the commissioners who agree it.
Even Labour's current front bench see it for what it is; which is why it's amazing to see them do an about face and say 'stay'..
British Labour Party politician John McDonnell, Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer, has described TTIP as resulting in a huge transfer of powers to Brussels and corporate interests that will bring about a form of "modern-day serfdom".[67] According to a European Parliament report, impacts on labour conditions range from job gains to job losses, depending on economic model and assumptions used for predictions.[15]
We have to get out whilst we still can.
Spurfect11
Vital Champions League
seriously - why do people think that closing the borders will solve the problem. it is more likely that a terrorist attacks is carried out by native citizens that are born and bred there, if not lived there since children. perhaps taking a look at how disadvantaged and vilified these youths are growing up is the key to love lost to their cities.
i.e. domestic terrorism.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/dec/29/what-citizenship-status-terrorists-united-states/
which I always have a bug bear about - because said article finds that most terrorist attacks are carried out by white supremacists - but they only get called hate crimes. jihadis, white supremacists and the IRA are all driven by ideology, but not are labelled the same. why is this?
basically - terrorists are born and bred around you - closing the borders will do nothing. Brussels is insanely mutlicultural - and yet acceptance of diverse cultures are not taught in schools. this would be a start towards creating equal opportunity no matter who you are.
i.e. domestic terrorism.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/dec/29/what-citizenship-status-terrorists-united-states/
which I always have a bug bear about - because said article finds that most terrorist attacks are carried out by white supremacists - but they only get called hate crimes. jihadis, white supremacists and the IRA are all driven by ideology, but not are labelled the same. why is this?
basically - terrorists are born and bred around you - closing the borders will do nothing. Brussels is insanely mutlicultural - and yet acceptance of diverse cultures are not taught in schools. this would be a start towards creating equal opportunity no matter who you are.
Spursex
Alert Team
No one said 'close' the border - just to get out of the EU so that we are responsible for who comes in and who doesn't and from where.
Of course that might just stop 'home grown' and EU grown terrorists or wannabes from slipping in and out the way they have apparently doing e.g as the ring leader in Brussels has done to the UK twice in the last 12 months.
Perhaps then without free movement everyone would stop being so complacent.
Nick Real Deal
Vital Football Legend
Home grown bullshit. Where did they go to learn their terrorist skills ?
Spursex
Alert Team
There's been small gaggle of 'radical' preachers that have been (and some still are) allowed to preach and say whatever they want - one based on Bradford who is well known for his support of radical Islam has a social media following in the UK of around 135,000. Another radical self-styled Imam in East London has 200,000
Relatives come and go - long periods in Pakistani madrassa's for British born often see this as a rite of passage; they're the breeding ground for radical Islam, and most in the tribal lands are heavily controlled by the Taliban - and many British born ethnic Pakistani's and other countries fought with the Taliban and often returned - they were even those who boasted of working here in the winter and returning in the summer, that's from as long as go as 2006.
Often, but not always the favoured route to go and come back has been via the EU - as it was an easier smarter way to avoid awkward questions at the border - if they were ever stopped.
Spurfect11
Vital Champions League
are you serious? all you need to do is google how to make a bomb and you'll have a homemade one that can do some damage. try put yourself in a young muslims shoes and the vitriol they get everyday. being blamed for terrorists bombimg up paris and brussels - being told they need their homes raided, having bigoted daily mail headlines and verbal abuse thrown at them day in day out. The West has been bombing the shit out of middle eastern countries for decades - two bombs in brussels and paris and half the UK wants to bomb Syria to the dust.
Nick Real Deal
Vital Football Legend
It doesn't matter where they are born. They are extremist Muslims and should be locked up. Those that have brainwashed them also.
The born and bred observation is feeble and irrelevant, to infer our culture and beliefs are responsible is ridiculous. If they were not here the problem would go away. Who asked us if we wanted multi culturalism ? Is that not as significant as the EU vote ? Mass immigration and incompatible cultures have ruined this Country.
The born and bred observation is feeble and irrelevant, to infer our culture and beliefs are responsible is ridiculous. If they were not here the problem would go away. Who asked us if we wanted multi culturalism ? Is that not as significant as the EU vote ? Mass immigration and incompatible cultures have ruined this Country.
Spurfect11
Vital Champions League
but the point I am making is that, if terrorists are born and bred in the country they bomb, what good is closing the borders? they are already here.
who asked for multiculturalism? mate we all live on the same planet - haven't you figured out the human race was destined to split away from africa as apes, evolve and then mix back together when technological advancements allow. it's simple population genetics. time to get used to it and start being kinder to our fellow humans.
our best bet to remove terorrism off the face of the earth is to stop muslims born in our cities around us turning into them. that means showing them there is a place in anywhere in the world that they have equal and fair treatment - the same treatment we westerners expect.
Nick Real Deal
Vital Football Legend
The ones that are already here can be found and locked up. If we prevent any more getting in we only have the ones here to deal with.
Just because we evolved into different types does not mean they are all good or equal. If you merge them together you end up with a compromise, not necessarily a good thing.
It is crazy to accept the long term option and hope for the best. It needs a quick fix. People are getting blown up. It has to be stopped by force.
Just because we evolved into different types does not mean they are all good or equal. If you merge them together you end up with a compromise, not necessarily a good thing.
It is crazy to accept the long term option and hope for the best. It needs a quick fix. People are getting blown up. It has to be stopped by force.
Spurfect11
Vital Champions League
there are no quick fixes. we have attempted quick fixes to terrorism since the 70's. it has got worse and worse because our so called world leaders only attempt do make the symptoms go away, not the cause of it. I'm glad you accept there is a long term option however.
Nick Real Deal
Vital Football Legend
I accept there could be a long term option, but would not try to formulate it. Too many people would die.
I would get rid of the cause for sure, our technology is so much better these days. Target the suspects, monitor their activities and deal with them. Of course dont let any more in until they sort their own problem out.
I would get rid of the cause for sure, our technology is so much better these days. Target the suspects, monitor their activities and deal with them. Of course dont let any more in until they sort their own problem out.
Nick Real Deal
Vital Football Legend
As expected the in campaign focuses on the financial side. To preserve our identity and freedom it may cost us more. But what price do you put on pride and contentment within your environment ?
The forecasts are extremely predictive and not based on fact anyway. If I was heading the out campaign it would be on identity, sovereignty and freedom, not money. The ins are showing their true colours, it's all about their money and protecting it.
The forecasts are extremely predictive and not based on fact anyway. If I was heading the out campaign it would be on identity, sovereignty and freedom, not money. The ins are showing their true colours, it's all about their money and protecting it.
I'm categorically for staying in, we're a small country that thinks its huge. We aren't. The EU is far from perfect but its as good as it gets. I find it ridiculous that 2 bunches of liars are expounding their lies then letting the 'great' British public decide.
As William Faulkner said about Hollywood - 'nobody knows anything'
PLus the fact chancers like BoJo are patently taking the path of Out despite being obviously more an In man purely because he's tilting at being PM and he reckons hes got a better chance this way.
This is probably the single most important political act any of us will ever make (voting on 23/6) but after decades of bullshit about 'EU rules' in the likes of the Daily Fail and Sun the masses have been brainwashed.
In the end I hope and believe In will win purely cos the majority vote for stasis, not unknown change.
As William Faulkner said about Hollywood - 'nobody knows anything'
PLus the fact chancers like BoJo are patently taking the path of Out despite being obviously more an In man purely because he's tilting at being PM and he reckons hes got a better chance this way.
This is probably the single most important political act any of us will ever make (voting on 23/6) but after decades of bullshit about 'EU rules' in the likes of the Daily Fail and Sun the masses have been brainwashed.
In the end I hope and believe In will win purely cos the majority vote for stasis, not unknown change.
