EU stay or go ? | Vital Football

EU stay or go ?

Cameron V Boris , but is it ? Cameron will not serve another term. What better way to elevate a buddy into your shoes, make him the hero.

Cameron may know the outcome of the vote is in the balance.

The financial implications are very difficult to quantify. For me Cameron's desperate attempt to reform our terms in the EU only hits home that the EU is not working for us at least. We are not full members, we don't use the currency, we don't have the same freedom of movement rights, and so on.

What effect will us leaving have on the EU ? Will it survive or will it trigger more disruption. Countries broker their own tailored trade deals, we have had to do it with non EU Countries including Norway and Switzerland, China and the US etc. As Boris kind of said, we are good at that stuff.

It will be interesting how this develops.

 
I actually think we could be safer out of the EU.

We have our own defence system (a little depleted now but could be supplemented again, making more jobs).

We have plenty of trading partners around the world and plenty of friends. AND we could get Jaffa oranges again! (Bonus).

We've dithered so long over this now, we never went fully in and we never joined the currency. VERY FEW of of our politicians wanted to take the chance of joining the Euro.

We are an island with our own economy and currency. We are in a position to be independent from Europe with our own laws made by our own parliament. All the nonsense of having to abide by the rules over how we make our food etc so that the pockets of the Europeans are lined instead of our own businessmen.

I would love to see us united as a nation again standing together, buying each others goods and supporting one another rather than bickering over different things. We're British. That's how I like to think of us. Not just Welsh or English, Scottish or Irish. Yes, we have our own identities, we always did but we're from the British Isles, that makes us British.

There's nothing stopping us from befriending any other nation and supporting them as we did during the war but we don't have to be run by them and lose out because of them when their economies drag us down. We shouldn't have to bale out Greece, Italy, Spain etc. when their people keep demanding social benefit payments etc and won't work, we have enough of that in this country and a big enough drain to our finances. We also shouldn't have to pay benefits to people from the EU who don't live here and never contributed to the economy.

FOR ME THE VOTE WILL BE TO GET OUT. ASAP. It may be hard for a while after we do so but better in the long run.
 
Stay. I have to travel for work and it would make things much more difficult having to apply for visas all the time, potentially.

Plus I don't actually see much to convince me we'd be better off out... We're meant to be leaving in order to cosy up with America etc more, but they've come out and said stay in, so...
 
The financial factor is bound to be the dominant concern.

We decided to ignore some very intelligent figures in politics in 1975 who warned of the implications of going in. Look at the state of our Country 40 years later.

I suggest far more important than money is our way of life for future generations to come.

Most who voted thought the EEC was an agricultural based agreement, Ted Heath did warn that there would be a loss of independence but the point was not driven home or potential outcomes outlined.

This time we have 40 years of evidence to help us make up our minds.

 
We may not be part of the shzengen zone, but anybody who holds a EU passport has the 'right' to Enter Britain and make use of our nhs. This is a huge number of people, approximately 500m passport holders. Turkey is mooted to be invited into the EU shortly. Every Turkish Passport holder will have free entry as well. Turkey as you may well be aware borders war torn Syria and they have approximately 2m + refugees camped on their borders and in immigrant camps inside Turkey. The EU wants to fast track Turkey into the Shzengen zone. All immigrants and refugees will be given EU passports. Can we really afford to stay in? Our National Health Service will very soon become the International Health Service. Every EU passport holder gets free use at point of service. Only the British tax payers get the bill!
 
The EU has become a monster and we have to escape it's clutches of we are to salvage anything left of our Country.

40 years ago Enoch Powell warned of the dangers, he was not a racsist, quite the opposite. He was a realist and highly intelligent.There is one story of him sitting a 3 hour exam for his degree. The task was to write a. Greek a poem. He finished in 1.5 hours and walked out after handing in his paper.

He had written in half the allowed time two versions in the style of two famous Greek poets. He attained the highest grade possible .

He joined the armed forces as a private and Rose to Brigadier, storming the officer training with ease. He formulated battle plans for Mountbatten who breezed in and took the credit.

Throughout his career he foresaw danger and patterns way before anyone else. In his prime he was recognised as our most gifted politician. Most of which he predicted has transpired in a variety of roles, Defence, Health, Housing etc.

He made many speeches but one even affected him,visably shaken as he sat down. The crux of it was when dealing with other Countries such as Africa we should treat them by our own standards, how we would want to be treated, not by the standards they are faced with. He found it disgusting that there were accepted levels of treatment according to which region. He could not accept that any human could be treated as a sub human.

The man was a genius, not a racsist and He transcended political parties, Tony Benn, Margaret Thatcher and the like praised him for his work. If he disagreed with Tory policy going into an election he advised the electorate to vote Labour. He was a loose cannon of course and in the end got frozen out by Heath and Thatcher.

In 1965 he predicted by 2000 1 in 10 of our population would be of immigrant background whether born here or not. It was more or less bang on.

So are we to at last listen to Enoch ?
 
Definitely in - physically an island but not in practical terms...
 
Definitely out.
There are too many possible scenarios where all the rest of the world could come and legitimately take advantage of our funds. We're too small a nation and size of island to ruin our economy by being overrun by those who are too happy to see our demise. Europe doesn't like us, they only want our funds. And if our economy goes down? The world economy could seriously suffer so we have an obligation not to allow it to fail.
 
Get out whilst we still can, this is our last chance. If we stay in we simply have to accept we can never hold our government to account ever again.

We've lost control over almost every policy area, the 'deal' done by Cameron is at best extremely weak, at worst a joke.

Since the conservatives and liberals came together we've made £44 billion in Austerity savings, we've paid the EU £87 billion in the same period.

Since the last labour government with had around 7.5 million inwards migrants (I don't blame them by the way, I take my hat off to them) but because we had no control over our borders none of the migration could be planned or properly resourced - hence why our housing issues have turned into an almost insolvable crisis - with planned migration and properly vetted migration we could have mitigated much of this.

The EU and the Euro is a basket-case, if we don't leave now, we'll be dragged into it as well - there is no escape from what it will now spiral into, and we can do is try and protect ourselves from the worst of it and get out now.
 
Stay in, better the devil you know. Tbh I'm more worried what the Tories would do without leash cos they're destroying the country's infrastructure as it is
 
other than the fact my business likely won't last 2 years if we leave, there are far better other reasons to stay that would benefit millions from human rights protection to the obvious access to the European market. it's only people like Farage and Boris Johnson who benefit - sycophants to the US and whose idea of saving money is taking it from those less fortunate.
 
I think we simply must help the migrants who are rushing away from death situations in the main (not the economic ones) and ensure we remove the humanitarian issue from the debate about the eu.

I also think whilst we are on the migrant tragedy we need to agree the proportion of migrants a country should be allocated. I believe it should most efinitely be related to a countries per capita per km squared. As such, Fance for example has a per capita of around 115 people per km squard whilst the UK and Germany are around the 250/260 mark approx. So come on France you have room for another 100 people per square kilometre to become equal...problem solved! And I am serious about this fairness being introduced.
 
Nick Real Deal - 23/2/2016 19:32

The EU has become a monster and we have to escape it's clutches of we are to salvage anything left of our Country.

40 years ago Enoch Powell warned of the dangers, he was not a racsist, quite the opposite. He was a realist and highly intelligent.There is one story of him sitting a 3 hour exam for his degree. The task was to write a. Greek a poem. He finished in 1.5 hours and walked out after handing in his paper.

He had written in half the allowed time two versions in the style of two famous Greek poets. He attained the highest grade possible .

He joined the armed forces as a private and Rose to Brigadier, storming the officer training with ease. He formulated battle plans for Mountbatten who breezed in and took the credit.

Throughout his career he foresaw danger and patterns way before anyone else. In his prime he was recognised as our most gifted politician. Most of which he predicted has transpired in a variety of roles, Defence, Health, Housing etc.

He made many speeches but one even affected him,visably shaken as he sat down. The crux of it was when dealing with other Countries such as Africa we should treat them by our own standards, how we would want to be treated, not by the standards they are faced with. He found it disgusting that there were accepted levels of treatment according to which region. He could not accept that any human could be treated as a sub human.

The man was a genius, not a racsist and He transcended political parties, Tony Benn, Margaret Thatcher and the like praised him for his work. If he disagreed with Tory policy going into an election he advised the electorate to vote Labour. He was a loose cannon of course and in the end got frozen out by Heath and Thatcher.

In 1965 he predicted by 2000 1 in 10 of our population would be of immigrant background whether born here or not. It was more or less bang on.

So are we to at last listen to Enoch ?
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No because he was indeed a rasicst playing to the lowest comondenominator. His so called intellect is irrelevant.

There’s an ongoing effort on the right to rehabilitate Powell. In a mealy-mouthed piece in the Telegraph on Saturday, Ed West did the “very clever man” routine (Powell picked Wagner, Beethoven and Haydn on Desert Island Discs, don’t you know?), threw in some flattering anecdotes and skipped daintily past the rivers of blood to focus on one area where Powell might feel vindicated: his Euroscepticism. Let’s remind ourselves of what West left out.

Firstly, the speech was no gaffe or unguarded remark but a calculated provocation. A few days earlier, Powell had told a friend, “I’m going to make a speech at the weekend and it’s going to go up ‘fizz’ like a rocket; but whereas all rockets fall to the earth, this one is going to stay up.” Secondly, he chose to quote the most explosive and alarmist comments from his constituents: “In this country in 15 or 20 years’ time the black man will have the whip hand over the white man”; “When she goes to the shops, she is followed by children, charming, wide-grinning piccaninnies.” If he were not interested in race-baiting, he need not have used that language. Thirdly, he wasn’t merely expressing reservations about multiculturalism — he was saying that immigrants had no right to be here in the first place. Fourthly, racial assaults, both verbal and physical, increased immediately after the speech, as if Powell had given racists the green light — in one instance white youths attacked Asians with metal bars outside a school in Southall. The likes of MP Paul Boateng and actor Sanjeev Bhaskar have talked about the mood in the playground and the street changing the very next day. In a piece for the Institute of Race Relations Jenny Bourne writes: “The point that is missed by almost every commentator to date is that Powell, though he might have echoed sentiments of his West Midlands voters, actually went on to create the Rivers of Blood he warned against. The blood shed was not that of the White English – clearly what Powell feared in the wake of US ‘race riots’ in the late 1960s – but of the Black newcomers, which is why it went largely unreported.”

It was hardly the most progressive era and yet the establishment rounded on Powell. Edward Heath sacked him from the shadow cabinet while the Times editorial called it “an evil speech” which “appealed to racial hatred”. To Ed West, it seems, they were all a bunch of politically correct lefties. One section of his piece begs to be quoted in full:

Certainly it was inflammatory in tone, and when a West Indian christening party was attacked soon after by yobs heard to shout “Powell”, the media was quick to erect a cordon sanitaire around his views. Yet there was, if anything, more violence from the Left. Powell’s constituency home was attacked, there were bomb threats when he was due to address universities, an edition of Any Questions had to me moved, and a planned visit to his old school was abandoned for fear of disruption.


Yes, you read that correctly. Never mind the people who had their faces slashed at a christening — they had to move Any Questions!

He was wrong to compare the British situation to race riots in America and communitarian tensions in India. He was wrong to say that the only solution to racial tension was to stop non-white people entering the country. He was wrong to predict race war, although he kept at it, cropping up like a crazy old uncle in 1976 (saying race war would make the Troubles in Northern Ireland “enviable”) and 1981 (saying that the summer’s riots threatened “civil war”). Wrong every time, unless you’re Anders Behring Breivik.

Powell’s hysterical talk of “piccaninnies” and “the whip hand” and “the River Tiber foaming with much blood” that the subject became toxic in mainstream politics. Enoch Powell’s biggest enemy wasn’t Ted Heath or students picketing Any Questions: it was Enoch Powell. By mistaking his own extreme pessimism and racist paranoia for fearless clarity, he brought misery to the lives of many British citizens, ruined his political career and even damaged his own cause. For a man who could speak 14 languages, that doesn’t seem very clever after all.

Dorian Lynskey

I'd also caution Brexit obsessives to stay well clear of conflating race and immigration as Powell so stupidly did. If anything the kind fetishistic stuff that NickRealdeal is so enamored of is poison to sensible folk who may have genuine reservations about issues of sovereignty and economics. Decent British people (Many of them black-they prefer that term to Picanninies I understand-) share these concerns. The racsists with there ill judged tripe about Powell, may make them hold their nose and vote to stay in, rather than give succor to people still pretending Powell is relevant fifty years later. I may vote in just to spite them.

 
Interesting to read this. As a Belgian, obviously I have a very different take on things and the facts presented by Belgian media are probably very different. The only thing I can say is that I believe the British people have this faith that they will be able to negotiate advantageous trade deals with the EU if they opt out. The reality is that the EU imposes strict trade rules to all of its partners, regardless of size. The rules that apply to Norway also apply to the US. There's no reason to believe the UK would get any advantage, the risk of upsetting others would far outweigh the advantages of being able to sell to the UK. In fact, I would venture to say that there would be absolutely no goodwill in trying to work things out with the UK (how many divorced couples go on to have amicable friendly relationships?). The irony of course is that if the UK wishes to continue doing business with the EU (and they do from what I've gathered), 95% of the rules currently in place will have to remain in place. The only significant difference is the fact that by opting out, the UK would abide by these rules by choice, not obligation ( the sacred notion of sovereignty). I respect the principle, but in the end it does seem like misplaced pride, and it would probably cost a lot of money. Certain concerns are valid, like the NHS, but wouldn't reforming the NHS and the criteria for access to healthcare be a better way of fixing that problem? The UK just fought to keep Scotland in, and I believe that if the UK opts out, Scotland will almost certainly opt out of the UK. It seems a bit counterproductive.
 
Powell was not against immigration, he wanted it controlled and selective. He wanted skilled people who would enhance our workforce.
 
Nick Real Deal - 15/3/2016 19:36

Powell was not against immigration, he wanted it controlled and selective. He wanted skilled people who would enhance our workforce.
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I never said he was against immigration. The mother of a friend of mine from the Caribbean has a signed letter from the RH E Powell begging her to come save the "motherland" on her wall she was a teacher and a trained nurse in Grenada. It gives her family a good laugh at Christmas(it's right next to her picture of the Queen seriously). I just said he was a bigot and a pessimist-those traits tend to hand in hand I notice- which he most certainly was. Regards that letter we could I guess add hypocrite, think he was a minister for employment or education or something. Will have to take a snap on my phone next time I am round there and post it.
 
But whilst it's on my mind Nick you need to work out what it is you are voting for. As BelgianSpur so sensible says is this really an issue of Sovereignty? Or one of hubris? Because I suspect that people like you seem to think you are voting for a national Tardis that will whisk us back to 1950 when we could say it like it is and the Picaninies would just have to like it. Your not Nick, and actually that kind of rhetoric is damaging to your cause. Take that elderly Caribbean lady I mention she knows more about "your" country than you do. She'd embarrass you in a history exam, her love of the lake poets of Gainsborough and Constable make her an Anglophile of the highest order. I was actually shocked by the vehemence of that particular families anti EU sentiment, the danger is as I said that people like them are justifiably grossed out by some of the illjudged coments, and weird associations you make. Its a mistake even Farrage has lately lamented that UKIP also made.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35403887
 
What weird associations have I made. ?

You implied Powell was a rascist, he was not. But he did want immigrants of quality,not quantity.

The financial implications are questionable, so many EU Countries are in trouble it begs the question why. Greece, Spain, Portugal , Italy. Now the influx of refugees into France etc is further burdon on them because of border and humanitarian policy.

What possible benefit is there to allowing mass immigration of impoverished people into your Country ?

I care about our environment and identity, our freedom to walk the streets safe. Our civilised and community values. I care about the NHS and Education, they are under intense pressure.There are too many people here.
 
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