Daniel Morgan murder ((n/G) | Page 4 | Vital Football

Daniel Morgan murder ((n/G)

Buddha said:
Exactly this, Jo.

I think that the two main reasons that many people are apparently not too concerned about this are that:
1. They simply do not understand the full story (or at least the full story as far as we already know) because they have not been paying attention, and
2. Many people (wrongly) dismiss this as something that happened 34 years ago and therefore isn't relevant now.

With regard to 1.:
A big part of the reason that people don't know or have failed to properly pay attention is because this outrageous scandal involves the media and (not surprisingly) the media has (deliberately) failed to give the story appropriate coverage.

With regard to 2.:
The false notion that this is something that happened a long time ago and has nothing to do with things happening now and more recently is again due to the way in which the story has been dealt with by the media. I'll repeat once again what the independent investigation panel said:

"Institutional corruption is not used in an historical sense but in a current sense."


Being aware and being alarmed by this doesn't mean you don't support the police! And neither does it mean that are not many individual police officers who are decent, honest individuals who are certainly not corrupt.

So 3x6 is probably correct to guess that most people don't know about this. And he is probably correct too to guess that many of those who have heard of the story dismiss this as something that happened a long time ago.

But why anybody on here (who has read this thread and the links I have provided) can simply dismiss this as unimportant, or something that happened a long time ago, or even as, "just more Buddha anti-police rhetoric", is quite breathtakingly staggering. Just read this thread property. Those arguments carry absolutely zero weight.

Maybe people just always knew that the was institutional corruption in the police, and are therefore not surprised or concerned because that's just the way it is and always has been...?

Or maybe people simply don't want to believe this to be true, and so are content to lie to themselves that this is something from years ago, even when they're told this is not the case by the independent inquiry report?!
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The reason a lot of people dismiss "historic" corruption is because, back in the day, much of it was pretty low level stuff (if there is such a thing). Giving the local gang members a clip round the ear or being heavy handed when making arrests. All things that are, of course, unacceptable to our modern way of thinking. Thing is, back then the public were aware of what was going on but turned a blind eye as the streets were safe and they knew that many "wrong uns" would not re offend because if the risk if getting a shoeing from the old bill.
Then 1984 came and PACE was introduced, people were dealt with correctly in custody etc and those who did wrong, couldn't get away with it any more. Many in my Dad's day actually left as they felt they couldn't do their job any more as their hands were tied.
I think that's why so many put this down to "just another" instance of old school police cover up. It is, of course mush more serious but I believe that's the reason for many people of a certain age not treating it so.
 
Nobby_66 said:
The reason a lot of people dismiss "historic" corruption is because, back in the day, much of it was pretty low level stuff (if there is such a thing). Giving the local gang members a clip round the ear or being heavy handed when making arrests. All things that are, of course, unacceptable to our modern way of thinking. Thing is, back then the public were aware of what was going on but turned a blind eye as the streets were safe and they knew that many "wrong uns" would not re offend because if the risk if getting a shoeing from the old bill.
Then 1984 came and PACE was introduced, people were dealt with correctly in custody etc and those who did wrong, couldn't get away with it any more. Many in my Dad's day actually left as they felt they couldn't do their job any more as their hands were tied.
I think that's why so many put this down to "just another" instance of old school police cover up. It is, of course mush more serious but I believe that's the reason for many people of a certain age not treating it so.
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Yeah, you may well have a point there, mate.

And probably a very similar thing with the "institutional racism"; many would have known it was going on but wouldn't have cared or may even have supported it because of the prevailing attitudes of the time. I was listening to a podcast about the Brixton Uprisings/Riots of 1981 and it featured that ex-copper who now does tv programmes - hang on, I'll find out his name - Peter Bleksley (you know who I mean?). Anyway he was a young PC who was working in that part of London just before and during that time. The comments he makes about how there was a culture of racism, prejudice and discrimination against the Black community should have been utterly shocking. But they weren't, because people do now know that that is what it really was like back then.

Of course, lots has changed. But lots also still needs to change. The police have made many improvements but they have not made enough.

Racism still exists in the police but the Stephen Lawrence murder was a long time ago. Nobody has called the police "institutionally racist" recently.

This corruption thing is happening now. It does relate to something that happened 34 years ago but that's just one part of the story. It almost also certainly relates to things that were happening prior to the murder, and it most definitely relates to lots of things that have happened in the thirty odd years since the murder.

You know me, nobs, I don't often have too much sympathy for the police (and in general terms, I don't have any sympathy for them about this) but I hope you know that I really am genuine when I say that I do have sympathy for individual coppers who aren't corrupt and whose reputation might have been tarnished by all this.
 
Buddha said:
Yeah, you may well have a point there, mate.

And probably a very similar thing with the "institutional racism"; many would have known it was going on but wouldn't have cared or may even have supported it because of the prevailing attitudes of the time. I was listening to a podcast about the Brixton Uprisings/Riots of 1981 and it featured that ex-copper who now does tv programmes - hang on, I'll find out his name - Peter Bleksley (you know who I mean?). Anyway he was a young PC who was working in that part of London just before and during that time. The comments he makes about how there was a culture of racism, prejudice and discrimination against the Black community should have been utterly shocking. But they weren't, because people do now know that that is what it really was like back then.

Of course, lots has changed. But lots also still needs to change. The police have made many improvements but they have not made enough.

Racism still exists in the police but the Stephen Lawrence murder was a long time ago. Nobody has called the police "institutionally racist" recently.

This corruption thing is happening now. It does relate to something that happened 34 years ago but that's just one part of the story. It almost also certainly relates to things that were happening prior to the murder, and it most definitely relates to lots of things that have happened in the thirty odd years since the murder.

You know me, nobs, I don't often have too much sympathy for the police (and in general terms, I don't have any sympathy for them about this) but I hope you know that I really am genuine when I say that I do have sympathy for individual coppers who aren't corrupt and whose reputation might have been tarnished by all this.
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Agree with all of that. Thing is, just like the historical sex offences being uncovered, we are judging yesterday's actions by today's standards, we as humans have moved on, slowly. That obviously doesn't apply in this heinous crime but, again, it explains a lot of the apathy towards it, thats all I'm saying. It in no way excuses it.
As you rightly say, the police still get stuff wrong but they are getting an awful lot right. Most of it is internal so the public don't see it but we are getting there. This is evident if you ever (I know you're not likely to) pop over to Hendon training college. The mix of male/female and white/black recruits is massively better than say, 20 years ago but it takes time to change lifelong held attitudes. As you admit, yours have changed slightly towards me (and vice versa, we used to have some right tear ups if you remember) in the time we've been on this board but that goes back 13 years going by my reckoning.
It takes time but we're all getting there.
 
Nobby_66 said:
Agree with all of that. Thing is, just like the historical sex offences being uncovered, we are judging yesterday's actions by today's standards, we as humans have moved on, slowly. That obviously doesn't apply in this heinous crime but, again, it explains a lot of the apathy towards it, thats all I'm saying. It in no way excuses it.
As you rightly say, the police still get stuff wrong but they are getting an awful lot right. Most of it is internal so the public don't see it but we are getting there. This is evident if you ever (I know you're not likely to) pop over to Hendon training college. The mix of male/female and white/black recruits is massively better than say, 20 years ago but it takes time to change lifelong held attitudes. As you admit, yours have changed slightly towards me (and vice versa, we used to have some right tear ups if you remember) in the time we've been on this board but that goes back 13 years going by my reckoning.
It takes time but we're all getting there.
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I think everyone has prejudices. The key is to recognise that in yourself and attempt to address those prejudices. Talking really helps.

You and one other copper who I knew have taught me that it is naive and foolish to think that, for instance, all coppers are bastards. I know that can't be true, partly because of my conversations with the two of you. Of course it is not literally true!

I hope that I have possibly helped you to understand that sometimes when certain people say that or spray that, they're not actually meaning it literally (although some might be, I'd disagree with them) but more figuratively. Not only that, but that certain sections of the community who have faced discrimination and prejudice from the police, perhaps have understandable reasons for having themselves become prejudiced against the police enough to feel, if even only figuratively, that all coppers blah, blah, blah. Prejudice just breeds more prejudice.

It's great that we don't fight anymore, even though we often disagree.
 
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Nobby_66 said:
The reason a lot of people dismiss "historic" corruption is because, back in the day, much of it was pretty low level stuff (if there is such a thing). Giving the local gang members a clip round the ear or being heavy handed when making arrests. All things that are, of course, unacceptable to our modern way of thinking. Thing is, back then the public were aware of what was going on but turned a blind eye as the streets were safe and they knew that many "wrong uns" would not re offend because if the risk if getting a shoeing from the old bill.
Then 1984 came and PACE was introduced, people were dealt with correctly in custody etc and those who did wrong, couldn't get away with it any more. Many in my Dad's day actually left as they felt they couldn't do their job any more as their hands were tied.
I think that's why so many put this down to "just another" instance of old school police cover up. It is, of course mush more serious but I believe that's the reason for many people of a certain age not treating it so.
Click to expand...
Historical events are best left there.
I was working in NI in 1998.
Do I now expect a knock on the door all these years on?
The only people responsible for that event are the bastards who planned the bombing.
 
shotshy said:
Historical events are best left there.
I was working in NI in 1998.
Do I now expect a knock on the door all these years on?
The only people responsible for that event are the bastards who planned the bombing.
Click to expand...

You're not keeping up, shotty, it has been made quite clear that this is not merely about something that happened in 1987. This is not a "historical event", it is very much current affairs.

Have a look at some of the links I've provided in this thread if you're confused.
 
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Corruption has to be investigated and seen to be effectively handled no matter which government agencies are involved and which party was or is in power.
 
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