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Pope John XXIII said:
Yes, the profits go to the British but historians looking at this have argued that a lot of those profits were spent in India. That is far less harmful than money being taken out. If economic growth is happening and the profits being spent domestically it hardly matters who is spending them.

I'm not saying it wasn't exploitative, I'm just being accurate.
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It is, but the shift in focus by you is an interesting one...
 
Calvin Plummer said:
Serfdom is vastly different to slavery, your ignorance is astonishing.

I gave you an amount and as an historian you should know why I gave that amount.

And yes it was racist, for you to claim there wasn't just highlights your own cognitive dissonance on the issue.
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Bullshit. Don't start lecturing me on historical ignorance.

In terms of status serfdom is literally one rung up the ladder. If you are trying the "humans being shit Olympics" then clearly the Triangular trade is going to win gold but British serfdom wins silver. If you think serfdom was just peasantry then you need to brush up CP.

And now you are flinging a charge of racism about with about as much legitimacy as DF flings antisemitism accusations.

Compensation/restitution is a legitimate modern debate. But it ceases to be a debate when you instantly lable the one side of it racist before you start.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Bullshit. Don't start lecturing me on historical ignorance.

In terms of status serfdom is literally one rung up the ladder. If you are trying the "humans being shit Olympics" then clearly the Triangular trade is going to win gold but British serfdom wins silver. If you think serfdom was just peasantry then you need to brush up CP.

And now you are flinging a charge of racism about with about as much legitimacy as DF flings antisemitism accusations.

Compensation/restitution is a legitimate modern debate. But it ceases to be a debate when you instantly lable the one side of it racist before you start.
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It is racism because you refuse to acknowledge legacy. Look at yours, look at Africa's...

You weren't a serf because of the colour of your skin, you don't continue to suffer as a consequence.

Play the poor white card all you want, I'm sure Lienking and Stret will be along to pat you on the back for it.
 
Calvin Plummer said:
I stopped reading properly once you implored me not to underestimate the value of giving a long term home to the descendents of slaves.

God damn ungrateful blacks. Give them a job, a nice holiday and a home and the fuckers want equality and reparations. The cheek!

The fact you've the nerve to draw parallels between the experience of your ancestors with slavery makes me nauseous. Especially given the circumstances YOU currently enjoy.

There's a reason why Lienking liked your post, but sure it's not right wing at all lol

Incidentally Germany paid reparations to Jews and continues to do so. Perhaps they should stop and ask for their money back? Sure you'd applaud them for it.

As for how much? We could start with an inflation adjusted 40 acres and a muel...
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I voted Labour whenever I could vote for 55 years, so I'm hardly right wing !
 
Calvin Plummer said:
It is racism because you refuse to acknowledge legacy. Look at yours, look at Africa's...

You weren't a serf because of the colour of your skin, you don't continue to suffer as a consequence.

Play the poor white card all you want, I'm sure Lienking and Stret will be along to pat you on the back for it.
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I personally wasnt talking about slavery in this debate though, I was talking specifically about colonialism. To an extent we are having two different debates.

It doesn't change things significantly; I still oppose restitution to the ancestors of slaves by the ancestors of non slaves. Because I don't think such restitution is meaningful when it is financial. Other restitution IMO is owed; not being routinely shot by police and being proper equal citizens would be a start

Equally I disagree with the concept of financial restitution for colonialism. I think that is a nonsense. Honestly, do you really believe in the concept that we could give a load of money (that we don't have) to African nations and call it even? Or just hold our heads high and say it's the right thing to do? What an utter nonsense. There is literally nothing that can be done to undo that past or to put it right for the true victims, so to attempt to do so is downright offensive.

It is also intensely myopic when we are complicit in exploitative industries NOW.

Anyone who properly studies British history with a critical eye doesn't need to go very far to find this nation committing great evils. As I said before, we did so on a grand scale against the French many times, and we did it simply because they were French. Does that matter less because it was based on nationality and not skin colour?

The debate is also how far the individual (you or me) has a right or an obligation to feel bad about the evils of empire or of our general past. Partly I suppose it depends on how wedded you feel to the nation and strongly affiliated you feel with it. Perhaps part of my feeling that the sins of the father's should not sit on the sons is because, at this time, I don't feel very wedded to or affiliated to Britain and I don't feel especially proud of being British. That is because of both our past and our present.

That's an interesting debate, but me and you cannot have that while you are flinging mud.
 
Calvin Plummer said:
Jesus Christ.

The value of Colonialism in India? Somewhere between 35 million and 1.8 billion deaths depending on how you calculate and we stole an estimated 45 Trillion dollars.

But we left those brown fuckers our language, ungrateful so and sos.
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Firstly any reference to brown is yours not mine. Just pointing out that as ever people on here look at things as clear cut. I don't know enough about it to discuss in any depth, but there were relatively few British soldiers there. India was not a united country run by Indians when we got there. Much of the fighting was done by Indians fighting other Indians for and against various colonial countries. Looking back it was all wrong, but it was in different times. We haven't been directly involved for 75 years, but the railways, infrastructure and language are still there.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Don't start with the abuse, you are a better debater than that.

I have answered your every post on restitution, this is different. Don't make it something it's not
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Just ignore him.

He's right about everything and anyone who disagrees is so wrong he has to call them names. Pathetic really.
 
Calvin Plummer said:
Bullshit. You live in a society where you continue to profit and they continue to suffer as a consequence of those actions.

I'm surprised to see you making a far right argument too.

Just because we can not fully make amends for the evils of our past doesn't mean we shouldn't try to mitigate the legacy of them.

Your argument is the same one a Nazi would make for not returning looted art from Jews.
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You can keep your middle class guilt my family were Irish immigrants & then coal miners, I know how lucky I am & those that came before me did so I can live in peace & comfort by the sea & I think about it often.

When was the last no blacks, no dogs no Irish signs taken down? They’re probably going back up because the working class were fucked over by the same empire building ***** that have always been in charge.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
I personally wasnt talking about slavery in this debate though, I was talking specifically about colonialism. To an extent we are having two different debates.

It doesn't change things significantly; I still oppose restitution to the ancestors of slaves by the ancestors of non slaves. Because I don't think such restitution is meaningful when it is financial. Other restitution IMO is owed; not being routinely shot by police and being proper equal citizens would be a start

Equally I disagree with the concept of financial restitution for colonialism. I think that is a nonsense. Honestly, do you really believe in the concept that we could give a load of money (that we don't have) to African nations and call it even? Or just hold our heads high and say it's the right thing to do? What an utter nonsense. There is literally nothing that can be done to undo that past or to put it right for the true victims, so to attempt to do so is downright offensive.

It is also intensely myopic when we are complicit in exploitative industries NOW.

Anyone who properly studies British history with a critical eye doesn't need to go very far to find this nation committing great evils. As I said before, we did so on a grand scale against the French many times, and we did it simply because they were French. Does that matter less because it was based on nationality and not skin colour?

The debate is also how far the individual (you or me) has a right or an obligation to feel bad about the evils of empire or of our general past. Partly I suppose it depends on how wedded you feel to the nation and strongly affiliated you feel with it. Perhaps part of my feeling that the sins of the father's should not sit on the sons is because, at this time, I don't feel very wedded to or affiliated to Britain and I don't feel especially proud of being British. That is because of both our past and our present.

That's an interesting debate, but me and you cannot have that while you are flinging mud.
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Without wading through it all my biggest criticism would be, who are you to oppose it? Just as who am I to impose it...

Why not actually ask the descendents of slavery what they want and go from there...
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Don't start with the abuse, you are a better debater than that.

I have answered your every post on restitution, this is different. Don't make it something it's not
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One side point, say I cracked you over the head and take a hundred quid from your wallet. 50 I spend on myself, and with the other 50 I buy some LED light bulbs, break into your house and install them.

Have I stolen 50 or 100 quid from you?
 
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