#COVID19

[in_the_top_one]

How on earth can we, not one of us having ran an Empire, make amends for what Imperial Britons (all dead) did to 19th and early 20th century Africans (all dead)?

Where does it stop?

Our ancestors exploited Indian and African ancestors. They were the latest in a long line of people to do so in both cases. Yuval Noah Harare makes quite a compelling argument in this case.

Should we also pay compensation to the French for the rape and pillage during the Chevauchee's of the 14th and 15th centuries?

How much should we be demanding from the Italians, Germans, Danes and Norman French for their invasions? 200,000 supposedly died in the harrying of the north by the Conqueror and it was laid waste; what is the compensation package for that?

Humans are shit. Now and in the past. There is absolutely no possible compensation that we today can offer to mitigate what dead people did to dead people, nor can we take the blame for long term consequences of that.

I am no more to blame for Empire than a German youth is for the Holocaust. We were not there. The spoils of society we enjoy are built on sweat and blood of our own ancestors in the sweatshops and factories of Victorian and Edwardian England; the long term spoils of empire are largely still with the same families who had it originally.

I suppose a simplistic answer would be not to worry so much about where it ends as where it begins. To begin reparations with the simple step of discontinuing the pillage. We might not be responsible for the powerful position in which we now sit, but we gladly continue to press home the advantage.

If we take it down a level, you could have the same argument within Britain. Why should any government try to level the playing field? The individuals in cabinet aren't personally responsible for inequity in the UK so why should any efforts be made?
Apples and oranges to some extent, granted, but there are parallels. Wouldn't you agree that it is in everybody's interests to raise the fortunes of the less well off? Especially when the existing power structures are responsible for the disparity? If that's true locally, why not globally?

 

[Calvin Plummer]

I suppose a simplistic answer would be not to worry so much about where it ends as where it begins. To begin reparations with the simple step of discontinuing the pillage. We might not be responsible for the powerful position in which we now sit, but we gladly continue to press home the advantage.

If we take it down a level, you could have the same argument within Britain. Why should any government try to level the playing field? The individuals in cabinet aren't personally responsible for inequity in the UK so why should any efforts be made?
Apples and oranges to some extent, granted, but there are parallels. Wouldn't you agree that it is in everybody's interests to raise the fortunes of the less well off? Especially when the existing power structures are responsible for the disparity? If that's true locally, why not globally?

Brown faces Vs White faces...

 

[Forest-England]

2nd doses are not really happening much, one of the GPs Mrs Strett is dealing with is on the naughty step for doing the 2nd when the stock was for first ones. Why? The GPs only get paid after the 2nd one is administered

So you're saying its nothing to do with GP's wanting to care for his patients? Why do the Tories hate the thought of people caring about others.
Obviously the vaccination is only completed after two injections.

 

[Pope John XXIII]

Bullshit. You live in a society where you continue to profit and they continue to suffer as a consequence of those actions.

I'm surprised to see you making a far right argument too.

Just because we can not fully make amends for the evils of our past doesn't mean we shouldn't try to mitigate the legacy of them.

Your argument is the same one a Nazi would make for not returning looted art from Jews.

It's not a far right argument. Literally it is Harare's arguement from Sapiens. I'm not familiar with him as a far right activist.

Put a figure on it. How much do we, who have done nothing, have to give to the African non-victims?

The UK gave £3bn of aid to Africa in 2017 alone. That has been going on for decades. I can't even find a figure for the total aid to Africa, but it is likely to be tens or hundreds of billions. Similar amounts to India/Pakistan.

On top of that, we have given a long term home to around 4m (currently living) Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, well over 1m Africans and around 600,000 Caribbeans. Don't underestimate that; I cannot think of any restitution that could match the importance of allowing people from the former Empire to come here, gain citizenship and take advantage of economic opportunities.

What possible compensation do you imagine that me or you or anyone could give? What number and what level of pointless flagellation would be enough?

I repeat- human beings are shit. A comprehensive pestilence on the planet. It's not our fault; we are just flawed animals and our behaviour is part of our makeup. We British cannot crow at the Germans and seriously claim that we are incapable of a holocaust here; no nation can seriously crow at us and claim their nation isn't capable of doing what we did given the opportunity. Many African leaders have hardly covered themselves in glory in those stakes. Yes, problems were inherited from European rule but there was no fait accompli there; it is condescending to deny Africans in war torn areas agency over what has happened there and claim it's all due to our decisions and actions.

Africa is developing. It was far behind Europe in its development in the 19th century and is much closer to Europe now. It is ready to go through the period of industrial hardship that we did in the 19th century and the far East have in the 20th. They may skip that if they are fortunate, but they will become economically more powerful afterwards.

Give me something to sign about current exploitation and I will sign it. If my phone needs to be more expensive or less good because Coltan or Cobalt mines are shut then great, give me the opportunity. I am typing this on a phone that could have caused misery to African children, and yes- that is partly on me. And yes, perhaps I should compensate for that.

But compensate for the actions of the same people who oppressed my own peasant ancestors? Nope, I am not qualified to do so

 

[Pope John XXIII]

I suppose a simplistic answer would be not to worry so much about where it ends as where it begins. To begin reparations with the simple step of discontinuing the pillage. We might not be responsible for the powerful position in which we now sit, but we gladly continue to press home the advantage.

If we take it down a level, you could have the same argument within Britain. Why should any government try to level the playing field? The individuals in cabinet aren't personally responsible for inequity in the UK so why should any efforts be made?
Apples and oranges to some extent, granted, but there are parallels. Wouldn't you agree that it is in everybody's interests to raise the fortunes of the less well off? Especially when the existing power structures are responsible for the disparity? If that's true locally, why not globally?

I don't disagree with that at all. I am very happy with a healthy aid budget and would be delighted to see significant investment in Africa and former colonies.

Doing so makes perfect economic sense and will be of major benefit to the entire world.

 

[jbacsta]

It's not a far right argument. Literally it is Harare's arguement from Sapiens. I'm not familiar with him as a far right activist.

Put a figure on it. How much do we, who have done nothing, have to give to the African non-victims?

The UK gave £3bn of aid to Africa in 2017 alone. That has been going on for decades. I can't even find a figure for the total aid to Africa, but it is likely to be tens or hundreds of billions. Similar amounts to India/Pakistan.

On top of that, we have given a long term home to around 4m (currently living) Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, well over 1m Africans and around 600,000 Caribbeans. Don't underestimate that; I cannot think of any restitution that could match the importance of allowing people from the former Empire to come here, gain citizenship and take advantage of economic opportunities.

What possible compensation do you imagine that me or you or anyone could give? What number and what level of pointless flagellation would be enough?

I repeat- human beings are shit. A comprehensive pestilence on the planet. It's not our fault; we are just flawed animals and our behaviour is part of our makeup. We British cannot crow at the Germans and seriously claim that we are incapable of a holocaust here; no nation can seriously crow at us and claim their nation isn't capable of doing what we did given the opportunity. Many African leaders have hardly covered themselves in glory in those stakes. Yes, problems were inherited from European rule but there was no fait accompli there; it is condescending to deny Africans in war torn areas agency over what has happened there and claim it's all due to our decisions and actions.

Africa is developing. It was far behind Europe in its development in the 19th century and is much closer to Europe now. It is ready to go through the period of industrial hardship that we did in the 19th century and the far East have in the 20th. They may skip that if they are fortunate, but they will become economically more powerful afterwards.

Give me something to sign about current exploitation and I will sign it. If my phone needs to be more expensive or less good because Coltan or Cobalt mines are shut then great, give me the opportunity. I am typing this on a phone that could have caused misery to African children, and yes- that is partly on me. And yes, perhaps I should compensate for that.

But compensate for the actions of the same people who oppressed my own peasant ancestors? Nope, I am not qualified to do so

Great post.

 

[Strett]

So you're saying its nothing to do with GP's wanting to care for his patients? Why do the Tories hate the thought of people caring about others.
Obviously the vaccination is only completed after two injections.

Not suggesting anything. Just pointing out a fact.
They get £25 per inoculation, which is 2 doses.
The flu is only a single shot, which they also get £25 for.
The GP doing this is on the naughty step, as it’s counter to the rollout rules.

 

[Calvin Plummer]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...rkers-risk-being-denied-covid-vaccine-england

Sigh.

Spot of good news though R has possibly dipped below 1.

 

[Lienking]

I suppose a simplistic answer would be not to worry so much about where it ends as where it begins. To begin reparations with the simple step of discontinuing the pillage. We might not be responsible for the powerful position in which we now sit, but we gladly continue to press home the advantage.

If we take it down a level, you could have the same argument within Britain. Why should any government try to level the playing field? The individuals in cabinet aren't personally responsible for inequity in the UK so why should any efforts be made?
Apples and oranges to some extent, granted, but there are parallels. Wouldn't you agree that it is in everybody's interests to raise the fortunes of the less well off? Especially when the existing power structures are responsible for the disparity? If that's true locally, why not globally?

I don't know enough about colonial history to comment too much, but surely it wasn't all bad ? A bit like what the Romans did to/for Britain, didn't we plan railways, roads etc In places like India much modern employment is down to the fact they speak English too.

 

[Calvin Plummer]

It's not a far right argument. Literally it is Harare's arguement from Sapiens. I'm not familiar with him as a far right activist.

Put a figure on it. How much do we, who have done nothing, have to give to the African non-victims?

The UK gave £3bn of aid to Africa in 2017 alone. That has been going on for decades. I can't even find a figure for the total aid to Africa, but it is likely to be tens or hundreds of billions. Similar amounts to India/Pakistan.

On top of that, we have given a long term home to around 4m (currently living) Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, well over 1m Africans and around 600,000 Caribbeans. Don't underestimate that; I cannot think of any restitution that could match the importance of allowing people from the former Empire to come here, gain citizenship and take advantage of economic opportunities.

What possible compensation do you imagine that me or you or anyone could give? What number and what level of pointless flagellation would be enough?

I repeat- human beings are shit. A comprehensive pestilence on the planet. It's not our fault; we are just flawed animals and our behaviour is part of our makeup. We British cannot crow at the Germans and seriously claim that we are incapable of a holocaust here; no nation can seriously crow at us and claim their nation isn't capable of doing what we did given the opportunity. Many African leaders have hardly covered themselves in glory in those stakes. Yes, problems were inherited from European rule but there was no fait accompli there; it is condescending to deny Africans in war torn areas agency over what has happened there and claim it's all due to our decisions and actions.

Africa is developing. It was far behind Europe in its development in the 19th century and is much closer to Europe now. It is ready to go through the period of industrial hardship that we did in the 19th century and the far East have in the 20th. They may skip that if they are fortunate, but they will become economically more powerful afterwards.

Give me something to sign about current exploitation and I will sign it. If my phone needs to be more expensive or less good because Coltan or Cobalt mines are shut then great, give me the opportunity. I am typing this on a phone that could have caused misery to African children, and yes- that is partly on me. And yes, perhaps I should compensate for that.

But compensate for the actions of the same people who oppressed my own peasant ancestors? Nope, I am not qualified to do so

I stopped reading properly once you implored me not to underestimate the value of giving a long term home to the descendents of slaves.

God damn ungrateful blacks. Give them a job, a nice holiday and a home and the fuckers want equality and reparations. The cheek!

The fact you've the nerve to draw parallels between the experience of your ancestors with slavery makes me nauseous. Especially given the circumstances YOU currently enjoy.

There's a reason why Lienking liked your post, but sure it's not right wing at all lol

Incidentally Germany paid reparations to Jews and continues to do so. Perhaps they should stop and ask for their money back? Sure you'd applaud them for it.

As for how much? We could start with an inflation adjusted 40 acres and a muel...

 

[Calvin Plummer]

I don't know enough about colonial history to comment too much, but surely it wasn't all bad ? A bit like what the Romans did to/for Britain, didn't we plan railways, roads etc In places like India much modern employment is down to the fact they speak English too.

Jesus Christ.

The value of Colonialism in India? Somewhere between 35 million and 1.8 billion deaths depending on how you calculate and we stole an estimated 45 Trillion dollars.

But we left those brown fuckers our language, ungrateful so and sos.

 

[Pope John XXIII]

I stopped reading properly once you implored me not to underestimate the value of giving a long term home to the descendents of slaves.

God damn ungrateful blacks. Give them a job, a nice holiday and a home and the fuckers want equality and reparations. The cheek!

The fact you've the nerve to draw parallels between the experience of your ancestors with slavery makes me nauseous. Especially given the circumstances YOU currently enjoy.

There's a reason why Lienking liked your post, but sure it's not right wing at all lol

Incidentally Germany paid reparations to Jews and continues to do so. Perhaps they should stop and ask for their money back? Sure you'd applaud them for it.

As for how much? We could start with an inflation adjusted 40 acres and a muel...

Be like that then, don't engage.

You have just assumed racism where there is none. There is a reasonable perspective in that post, but you are assuming it to be something it is not because you don't want to even consider agreeing with it.

It would be easy for me to lable you as a virtue signalling woke wannabee.

I at least am open and honest about my culpabilities. You didn't read that far.

Nor are you willing to actually state what proper compensation would be and how it would differ from what the country has already done.

So, what would you consider adequate compensation to be? Answer that question CP, because I might even agree with your answer.

And don't lecture me on "how dare you". Serfdom is one rung up the ladder from slavery only, and my family is from Lincolnshire serf stock. This country wasn't always privileged

 

[Calvin Plummer]

New varient is 30% more deadly :/

 

[Calvin Plummer]

Be like that then, don't engage.

You have just assumed racism where there is none. There is a reasonable perspective in that post, but you are assuming it to be something it is not because you don't want to even consider agreeing with it.

It would be easy for me to lable you as a virtue signalling woke wannabee.

I at least am open and honest about my culpabilities. You didn't read that far.

Nor are you willing to actually state what proper compensation would be and how it would differ from what the country has already done.

So, what would you consider adequate compensation to be? Answer that question CP, because I might even agree with your answer.

And don't lecture me on "how dare you". Serfdom is one rung up the ladder from slavery only, and my family is from Lincolnshire serf stock. This country wasn't always privileged

Serfdom is vastly different to slavery, your ignorance is astonishing.

I gave you an amount and as an historian you should know why I gave that amount.

And yes it was racist, for you to claim there wasn't just highlights your own cognitive dissonance on the issue.

 

[Pope John XXIII]

Jesus Christ.

The value of Colonialism in India? Somewhere between 35 million and 1.8 billion deaths depending on how you calculate and we stole an estimated 45 Trillion dollars.

But we left those brown fuckers our language, ungrateful so and sos.

I'm not disagreeing with your points here, but the $45 trillion figure has been widely reported in numerous news sources but HAS been debunked to an extent by historians.

I was teaching this a few weeks ago and read an article on it.

The $45 trillion figure erroneously assumes that every resource used by the British was taken out of India to Britain, which of course is nonsense. A very large proportion of of that figure was recycled within the Indian economy itself; eh Indian manufacture, products sold to Indians, profits spent in India.

I am not mitigating, but I thought you would appreciate the historical accuracy of that.

In terms of what was actually taken out of India completely the figure is much, much lower.

 

[Calvin Plummer]

1: Will the newer UK variant which is fast spreading, become dominant meaning there is less opportunity for the SA variant to break through?
.. I think our own version is already now dominant in the UK. (Might be wrong.)
So far as I know we don't have any SA strain yet. Let's assume it arrives, what would happen then? Depends on the answer to 2. Since the other strains have been through a decent portion of the pop. AND the UK strain is more infectious, AND the UK strain had a head start, it might be less of a problem than first appears. If we have some level of protection against it from past exposure to the Wuhan and UK variants, as well as the vaccinated portion of our community, then, again, it is less of an issue.
If it is sufficiently different that it is unrecognised by our immune system and vaccines, then you can treat it as a new pandemic of a different disease close to Day 1. Personally, I think this is unlikely. Even if so, the vaccine would be an update, and much quicker to come online.

2: Are people who have already caught non SA COVID be vulnerable to it?
.. This is the big worry. The answer is that we don't know yet. There are worrying signs that blood from some recovered patients of the Wuhan strain doesn't do much against it. However, the trials are in very small numbers and seem to be all over the place - some do, some don't. Also, the reaction in a dish can be very different from the reaction in a human bean.

3: Does it mean people will need a new/modified vaccination to be immune?
.. As above.

[/QUOTE]

The new strain in the UK is significantly more deadly it seems, with those from Brazil and SA potentially even more so, along with neutralising much of the effects of the vaccine.

 

[Calvin Plummer]

I'm not disagreeing with your points here, but the $45 trillion figure has been widely reported in numerous news sources but HAS been debunked to an extent by historians.

I was teaching this a few weeks ago and read an article on it.

The $45 trillion figure erroneously assumes that every resource used by the British was taken out of India to Britain, which of course is nonsense. A very large proportion of of that figure was recycled within the Indian economy itself; eh Indian manufacture, products sold to Indians, profits spent in India.

I am not mitigating, but I thought you would appreciate the historical accuracy of that.

In terms of what was actually taken out of India completely the figure is much, much lower.

It was recycled and then subsequently profited the British and a small group of Indians.

The figure come what may is absolutely vast.

 

[Pope John XXIII]

New varient is 30% more deadly :/

Which new varient? Kent or SA?

30% isn't great but 30% higher of a 0.9% average mortality thankfully isn't Captain Trips either.

 

[Pope John XXIII]

It was recycled and then subsequently profited the British and a small group of Indians.

The figure come what may is absolutely vast.

Yes, the profits go to the British but historians looking at this have argued that a lot of those profits were spent in India. That is far less harmful than money being taken out. If economic growth is happening and the profits being spent domestically it hardly matters who is spending them.

I'm not saying it wasn't exploitative, I'm just being accurate.

 

[Calvin Plummer]

Which new varient? Kent or SA?

30% isn't great but 30% higher of a 0.9% average mortality thankfully isn't Captain Trips either.

Kent.

So for every 10 who died under the old strain 13-14 do under the new one.

So that would move us from 95k deaths to 130k.

Worldwide 2m to 2.7m

Very rough figures as some have already died from new strains.