#COVID19 | Page 718 | Vital Football

#COVID19

in_the_top_one said:
Right. So the SNP are not a one-issue party then?

The SNP got 50% of the Scottish popular vote at the general election immediately after losing their referendum 55%-45%.
Clearly - and I mean very clearly - not a one issue party in the eyes of Scots.


The rest, we are both speculating on. You seem to think that if/when they win independence, their 'single' issue will be over and done with and they will fade into obscurity. You might be right but, personally, I doubt that since many scots vote for them despite not even wanting independence.
On top of that, they will be riding the crest of a wave, having already moved on from defeat in 2014 to build support for leaving from 45% to 58%, according to polling in December. Only time will tell.
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If you read what I put, I did say that they have widened their policies beyond the one-issue party . Unlike most original one-issue parties they have actually obtained some power, which means they have to have policies on education, health etc. Many voters will support them simply for independence though , as many supported Boris for Brexit. Once they obtain Independence, they will lose their "unique selling point" and simply be judged as another party, though as I have said above, with the benefit in their case of having previous power.
 
I personally think that should the Scots be granted independance the party that won it for them the SNP would subsequently take a hell of a lot of shifting. What other party could convince their electorate that they would be a better bet than the SNP?
 
Strett said:
Jingoistic? I'm not an extreme patriot, I have pride in our country and I'm not about to pretend I don't.

I find it sad that citizens of the UK cannot bring themselves to acknowledge successes made by their own country, because of a deep-set, dogmatic, tribalistic political viewpoint.

A better response to the fact about the speed of the UKs procurement and rollout would have been something along the lines of, 'Yes we should all be happy that we have majored in this aspect of the Pandemic', rather than brushing any praise off as jingoism.

Many on here were (rightly) frothing at the mouths in March last year, talking down the government's response to this, lavishing some praise when it is due, ergo is the correct thing to do, even if it is through gritted teeth.
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This is ridiculous. I have been nothing but positive about the vaccines and the speed of roll out here. I have praised the scientists involved in the evaluation (and mourn the loss of the EMA to Amsterdam alongside its 900 staff, £300m+ budget, and 40,000 business trips to London).
When you wrote, "Great news for the UK", I wrote "This is fabulous news. A step towards what we all want. A true cause for celebration". I just took issue with your suggestion that it was only possible thanks to brexit - which it was not. I also wonder if the EMA had still been in the UK whether our legislation might have applied to over 500m people rather than just our own 70m. That's speculation though. You have also used our success in approving a vaccine first to accuse the EU of dragging its heels, or even deliberately killing people to save the project. I find that outrageous for reasons described previously. Not least that the block procurement helped save lives in countries with less clout like Romania and Slovakia who might otherwise have been left behind as the larger and richer nations bought up all the stocks. That's the conclusion of the article you posted in order to prove the erroneous point that the EU's political project was deliberately killing people.

I have defended the Oxford/UK vaccine against allegations that they "fiddled the figures". I have also thanked on more than one occasion your wife and her colleagues for their efforts in the roll out.

I am proud of our country.
I used the word jingoism because you have rarely, if ever, praised the vaccine delivery outside the context of simultaneously putting down other countries. "Look at how good we are in the UK in comparison to the terrible EU."
That is a form of jingoism.
We all want the UK to be vaccinated. The bigger goal is vaccinating the whole world because people are people.
 
Side note: I do sometimes wonder why I am proud of the UK when I can claim no credit for its phenomenal achievements over the years. Why do I feel proud rather than just have admiration? Pride means you have skin in the game and I don't really know where that emanates from. Do you get a kick out of it just because you live here? Anyway, that's perhaps for another day.
 
Lienking said:
If you read what I put, I did say that they have widened their policies beyond the one-issue party . Unlike most original one-issue parties they have actually obtained some power, which means they have to have policies on education, health etc. Many voters will support them simply for independence though , as many supported Boris for Brexit. Once they obtain Independence, they will lose their "unique selling point" and simply be judged as another party, though as I have said above, with the benefit in their case of having previous power.
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Which, is why - if you had read what I had put - I said you were right.
Take it graciously - I don't say that to you often :cheers:


We are both in agreement that Strett was wrong. It was only a small thing but since he doubled down...
 
jbacsta said:
I personally think that should the Scots be granted independance the party that won it for them the SNP would subsequently take a hell of a lot of shifting. What other party could convince their electorate that they would be a better bet than the SNP?
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Agree they would be hard to shift although some people think their one issue would be done and they would have little left.

It would still depend on how the country faired. I imagine all the ills that would befall them would be blamed on intransigence and bullying from the english.
 
in_the_top_one said:
This is ridiculous. I have been nothing but positive about the vaccines and the speed of roll out here. I have praised the scientists involved in the evaluation (and mourn the loss of the EMA to Amsterdam alongside its 900 staff, £300m+ budget, and 40,000 business trips to London).
When you wrote, "Great news for the UK", I wrote "This is fabulous news. A step towards what we all want. A true cause for celebration". I just took issue with your suggestion that it was only possible thanks to brexit - which it was not. I also wonder if the EMA had still been in the UK whether our legislation might have applied to over 500m people rather than just our own 70m. That's speculation though. You have also used our success in approving a vaccine first to accuse the EU of dragging its heels, or even deliberately killing people to save the project. I find that outrageous for reasons described previously. Not least that the block procurement helped save lives in countries with less clout like Romania and Slovakia who might otherwise have been left behind as the larger and richer nations bought up all the stocks. That's the conclusion of the article you posted in order to prove the erroneous point that the EU's political project was deliberately killing people.

I have defended the Oxford/UK vaccine against allegations that they "fiddled the figures". I have also thanked on more than one occasion your wife and her colleagues for their efforts in the roll out.

I am proud of our country.
I used the word jingoism because you have rarely, if ever, praised the vaccine delivery outside the context of simultaneously putting down other countries. "Look at how good we are in the UK in comparison to the terrible EU."
That is a form of jingoism.
We all want the UK to be vaccinated. The bigger goal is vaccinating the whole world because people are people.
Click to expand...

The people suggesting the EU are dragging their heels and killing people are the angry press in the EU countries who are negatively affected by the EU bureaucracy, and who are not getting the vaccines which were developed there.

I'm merely posting the articles which are unlikely to be found anywhere in 'The European' or 'The Guardian' so you are unlikely to be aware of them ;-)

So it is OK to compare death rates in the UK against other countries because we are doing pretty badly compared to others, but it's not OK to compare vaccine delivery against other countries, because we are doing well. Am I getting there?

It is amusing that the mere suggestion of any wrongdoing by the EU is 'outrageous' but cheering along with all manner of slurs against the current UK government is cool beans.

Anyway, this is in danger of becoming petty and I respect you and your opinions, so I'm not going to continue after this as there is no logical ending.

x
 
Strett said:
The people suggesting the EU are dragging their heels and killing people are the angry press in the EU countries who are negatively affected by the EU bureaucracy, and who are not getting the vaccines which were developed there.

I'm merely posting the articles which are unlikely to be found anywhere in 'The European' or 'The Guardian' so you are unlikely to be aware of them ;-)

So it is OK to compare death rates in the UK against other countries because we are doing pretty badly compared to others, but it's not OK to compare vaccine delivery against other countries, because we are doing well. Am I getting there?

It is amusing that the mere suggestion of any wrongdoing by the EU is 'outrageous' but cheering along with all manner of slurs against the current UK government is cool beans.

Anyway, this is in danger of becoming petty and I respect you and your opinions, so I'm not going to continue after this as there is no logical ending.

x
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Think we had that conversation already, save the congratulations when the vaccines are with the population and not before. Bojo has had more false fucking dawns than forest!
 
Strett said:
As far as the many are concerned Scottish nationalism=good, English Nationalism=bad.
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Nope. A lot of English people are of the opinion that if the Scottish want to go then that’s fine so long as they take their share of the national debt. Nothing to do with whether it’s good or bad.
 
Strett said:
The people suggesting the EU are dragging their heels and killing people are the angry press in the EU countries who are negatively affected by the EU bureaucracy, and who are not getting the vaccines which were developed there.

I'm merely posting the articles which are unlikely to be found anywhere in 'The European' or 'The Guardian' so you are unlikely to be aware of them ;-)

So it is OK to compare death rates in the UK against other countries because we are doing pretty badly compared to others, but it's not OK to compare vaccine delivery against other countries, because we are doing well. Am I getting there?

It is amusing that the mere suggestion of any wrongdoing by the EU is 'outrageous' but cheering along with all manner of slurs against the current UK government is cool beans.

Anyway, this is in danger of becoming petty and I respect you and your opinions, so I'm not going to continue after this as there is no logical ending.

x
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To clarify it was Lienking who accused the EU of "deliberately killing" people.
You referred to "a decision not to vaccinate their own" as an example of "EU twattery", as if they thought, "I know, let's not vaccinate our own people so we can look like a strong unit".

Obviously, while I do agree with the fact that some european people/newspapers are quite justified in being cross about the vaccine roll out in their own sovereign countries, I don't agree with much of your post. However, I am not trying to have the last word after your magnanimity. Just wanted to clarify that quote so you didn't feel slurred by Lienking's comment.
 
in_the_top_one said:
T
That is a form of jingoism.
We all want the UK to be vaccinated. The bigger goal is vaccinating the whole world because people are people.
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ITTO as I've said before I respect your opinion. The reason for what looks like jingoism on here from some of us is the response though to much of what is posted by other people . Mao said that vaccinating 137,000 people in the UK was "pathetic". The only way of proving that it isn't is by comparing us with other countries. Israel is doing better, but not many other Western countries are. There was also a lot of flak against BJ "failing" to join the EU purchasing scheme. It's early days, but I've still not seen anyone explain why the EU put their "stick together" ideology ahead of saving lives. Yes we COULD have used our approval system if we were still in the EU. Whether we WOULD have, and broken ranks with 27 countries is another matter. Also as a major member of the EU would political force have been used to purchase with the EU . Questions that just can't be answered of course.
 
i am a tree said:
hmm tested positive.
Its weird though, i've barely had symptoms (just some achyness and prickles) and i feel better today than i did yesterday so maybe i'll get lucky.
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Good luck fella. I recommend Paracetamol for the headaches, plenty of water and listen to your body. I know this sounds annoyingly obvious, but that is my experience of relieving the symptoms.
 
in_the_top_one said:
To clarify it was Lienking who accused the EU of "deliberately killing" people.
You referred to "a decision not to vaccinate their own" as an example of "EU twattery", as if they thought, "I know, let's not vaccinate our own people so we can look like a strong unit".
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BJ has made some wrong/late decisions, but EVERY decision he has had to make is a balance between covid deaths/economy/non-covid deaths. Sadly people are being killed by Covid every day. The EU deliberately delayed member countries from approving the vaccine separately, and buying the vaccine separately. Other than ideology I can see no reason for this, but I'm quite open to explanations.

Estimates of the extra deaths caused by this decision is around 15,000. If this isn't causing people to die for the sake of being seen to stick together, again I'm open to explanations.
 
i am a tree said:
hmm tested positive.
Its weird though, i've barely had symptoms (just some achyness and prickles) and i feel better today than i did yesterday so maybe i'll get lucky.
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The good news is that you don't even need to be particularly lucky. Infections that become critical are a small percentage. That vast majority have no symptoms, mild,
or moderate.

I hope that the outcome of this will be a great lifting of the anxiety you have been living with. I'm sure you will feel a lot more relaxed about everything having had it and attained a good level of immunity.
 
Lienking said:
BJ has made some wrong/late decisions, but EVERY decision he has had to make is a balance between covid deaths/economy/non-covid deaths. Sadly people are being killed by Covid every day. The EU deliberately delayed member countries from approving the vaccine separately, and buying the vaccine separately. Other than ideology I can see no reason for this, but I'm quite open to explanations.

Estimates of the extra deaths caused by this decision is around 15,000. If this isn't causing people to die for the sake of being seen to stick together, again I'm open to explanations.
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We have been through this before.
 
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