Bit of Brexit info required.

[Lienking]

Leaving a supposedly democratic organisation on a democratic vote is not being bloody minded.

 

[radfordinlondon]

If you read back you will see that Varadka is not allowed to stop planes flying over Ireland. If you look at a map (as I've already mentioned) we would need to make a slight detour to the USA. Of course Ireland would then be cut off from the whole of Europe! Varadka is just an idiot being spurred on by the fact he thinks he has the EU's backing. The UK spends £45 billion on holidays. If they want to stop us flying there that's up to them, but of course they allow Russia, Turkey, China etc to fly. Think of the tourist boost for UK resorts from "staycations"! British Airways (a Spanish company), Ryanair etc would be hit.

The EU have no reason to stop us flying. It's supposed to be a democratic world, and if they are so bloody minded that proves we are right to leave.

There is also zero chance that Scotland will stay in the EU if May does ever get round to leaving. As for the ports if we have zero tax on WTO rules on food, that shouldn't cause holdups. There may be short term problems, but we have a £70 billion trade deficit, so no imports /exports (which won't happen anyway) would stop this overspend. The EU will still want to get this money out of us, as it keeps about 3 million of them employed.

What happens when Scotland votes for independence, a real possibility after brexit

 

[Old Red Fart]

As I don't know all the facts and am far from the action I'm hesitant to get too involved in this debate but some things do stand out more than others. First of all you've had a democratic vote and even though it was close it should be binding, talk of a further vote because some of you didn't like the result does sound unreasonable. And any sort of split of this magnitude is bound to present problems but nothing insurmountable so far as I can see. In fact I do know for certain that Australia is trying hard to export more food items and other stuff to the UK and that's only one country out of a good many.
RB, I had to smile at your reference to ration books and food during WW2, at that time I was a small kid but remember shortages of many foodstuffs, butter for one when we had some sort of whale derivative in lieu and that was one of a good many. From what I learn from friends and rellies in the UK you mostly seem to live pretty well and I'm not suggesting that you should have to revert to those days. But when backs are to the wall it's some times surprising what can be achieved.

 

[RedBasie]

As I don't know all the facts and am far from the action I'm hesitant to get too involved in this debate but some things do stand out more than others. First of all you've had a democratic vote and even though it was close it should be binding, talk of a further vote because some of you didn't like the result does sound unreasonable. And any sort of split of this magnitude is bound to present problems but nothing insurmountable so far as I can see. In fact I do know for certain that Australia is trying hard to export more food items and other stuff to the UK and that's only one country out of a good many.
RB, I had to smile at your reference to ration books and food during WW2, at that time I was a small kid but remember shortages of many foodstuffs, butter for one when we had some sort of whale derivative in lieu and that was one of a good many. From what I learn from friends and rellies in the UK you mostly seem to live pretty well and I'm not suggesting that you should have to revert to those days. But when backs are to the wall it's some times surprising what can be achieved.

If we don't like the result of a general election we do get a further vote in five years time. Not in Brexit which will divide and not unite the country. And where are IKIP the instigators of this mess. Those who are having to deliver Brexit didn't vote for it.

 

[Lienking]

Every vote divides the nation, except normally bar the extreme labour/conservative fanatics everyone gets on with life. This time instead of getting on with things we have had court cases, calls for another vote, people saying that 52% isn't an acceptable win to change things , people who voted leave will all be dead soon/are idiots etc.

The UK majority was 1.250,000 . In England it was over 2,000,000 . 65% of constituencies voted leave to 35% remain.

The vote should have been legally binding, which would have forced us to make preparations. Instead we get a bullying EU who think if they bombard us with bad news they can still stop us leaving. Ironically in the last election Labour stood on a leave mandate too, whilst managing to win votes from remainers by giving the impression they would stay in too, and they are more interested in bringing down the government than showing a united front to get a good deal. Corbyn is a lifelong anti-EU voter who couldn't introduce many of his policies inside the EU !

The liberals stood on a remain mandate, as did the green party, and they notched up 20% between them. There will be a vote every 5 years on our relationship with the EU. I am all for good relations and trade with them, without having leaders not elected or wanted by us running everything in a dictatorial way, and working towards their pie in the sky ever closer union.

 

[radfordinlondon]

Problem with those figures is the context of approx 70 something % who voted. I.e. the winning 52% is still a minority. Then of course there is all the additional information that we now know that we didn't two years ago.

A common analogy is that if u were sold a house and the survey came back saying the house is fooked you wouldn't buy it.

Democracy is a conversation not a snap shot vote. Do I think it right 650 sweaty politicians should decide the fate of 65million? No cos they have all demonstrated that party politics comes above national interest.

Peoples vote with the full facts of the deal on the table is the only way to sort this out imo

 

[Lienking]

We will only have "full facts" a couple of years after we have left though! We are still in project fear negotiation mode. The only thing we know so far is that the IMF who are forecasting our doom, have got it wrong with their predictions so far. Everything else is just a load of predictions.

 

[Old Red Fart]

It's quite obvious that there will be a lot of work to be done if this goes ahead and it looks as though it will. What's new about that ? Not too much in my view. It does sound as though most of you on here are either working pretty hard or have done in the past, surely a part change of direction will only be of a temporary nature, another hill to be climbed and conquered. Can't be the first problem you or the country has faced. I'm not suggesting that it will be easy but feel certain it's not insurmountable.

It does remind me of my own mindset when we emigrated with 3 very small kids. It was on the basis of "could do better" and a bit of decent weather to go with it.

 

[Old Red Fart]

And there's a bit of doubt in my mind about how long the EU will last.

 

[RedBasie]

And there's a bit of doubt in my mind about how long the EU will last.

It better last. It is much better than what preceded it.

 

[Lienking]

It's quite obvious that there will be a lot of work to be done if this goes ahead and it looks as though it will. What's new about that ? Not too much in my view. It does sound as though most of you on here are either working pretty hard or have done in the past, surely a part change of direction will only be of a temporary nature, another hill to be climbed and conquered. Can't be the first problem you or the country has faced. I'm not suggesting that it will be easy but feel certain it's not insurmountable.

It does remind me of my own mindset when we emigrated with 3 very small kids. It was on the basis of "could do better" and a bit of decent weather to go with it.

We have seven weeks with no proper rain here! Quite looking forward to a forecast downpour on Friday! 20-25 degrees is fine for me!

 

[Old Red Fart]

We have seven weeks with no proper rain here! Quite looking forward to a forecast downpour on Friday! 20-25 degrees is fine for me!

You should worry. Middle of Winter here and we are averaging 6 or 7 degrees over the top but no rain, to the point that most of New South Wales is drought affected and that's an awful lot of country. Most of the state is bone dry to the extent that there's no grass and consequently no feed for stock. I've never seen anything quite like it.

Some people might say that Climate Change is much more important than Brexit.

RB, that last post of yours has got me a bit worried, how far back are you going ?

 

[RedBasie]

You should worry. Middle of Winter here and we are averaging 6 or 7 degrees over the top but no rain, to the point that most of New South Wales is drought affected and that's an awful lot of country. Most of the state is bone dry to the extent that there's no grass and consequently no feed for stock. I've never seen anything quite like it.

Some people might say that Climate Change is much more important than Brexit.

RB, that last post of yours has got me a bit worried, how far back are you going ?

Within our lifetimes.

 

[Old Red Fart]

Within our lifetimes.

View attachment 28062

Bloody hell !

That's stretching it.

 

[Lienking]

What happens when Scotland votes for independence, a real possibility after brexit

It would be a democratic decision if Scotland left the UK, but there's no chance they will simply walk back into the EU. New entrants have to use the Euro, Spain would probably stand in their way (worried about Catalonia), and it would take years to sort out their joining. The EU Brexit deal would probably be nothing compared to negotiations if Scotland goes it's own way! Currencies, debts, border controls and allsorts to sort out!

 

[Lienking]

You should worry. Middle of Winter here and we are averaging 6 or 7 degrees over the top but no rain, to the point that most of New South Wales is drought affected and that's an awful lot of country. Most of the state is bone dry to the extent that there's no grass and consequently no feed for stock. I've never seen anything quite like it.

Some people might say that Climate Change is much more important than Brexit.

RB, that last post of yours has got me a bit worried, how far back are you going ?

Your drought is natural though ORF. Ours has been sent by Juncker and will be followed by the locusts and the plague if we don't do what he wants! Also forget to mention that WW3 will break out, as only the EU stands between us and war. (Presumably nothing to do with NATO, nuclear missiles, better education etc). Actually I have heard he has had to cancel the locusts as he had forgotten they actually have a high nutrition value, and could upset his plans to starve us into submission.

 

[in_the_top_one]

Toms, I left not to join a new party but to get a rest from all the pig ignorant bullshit. I don't want to be rude but that is what it is.

Bullshit such as referring to crashing out to WTO rules as a blip or bump in the road, as being 'fine in the long run'.
It isn't. It is a legitimately terrifying scenario.

I also can't stand the belittling of the situation as per Lienking's post above, and others, where he puts forward facetious suggestions that the economic boom from brits taking staycations is in any way a silver lining to our prospects.

We need to be grown up and face facts now. No Deal is simply unthinkable. Nobody wants it. Unfortunately, it is now the last refuge of the brexiters who can no longer blame the lack of an alternative solution on anybody else. They cannot write down anything that works, so they say well let's just leave - that'll show 'em. But it wouldn't show anything other than their ignorance and callous willingness to sabotage the UK.


We are being asked to stockpile food, blood and medicines. This would have been called scaremongering before the referendum and dismissed. It is now government policy!

Is this the bright future we were promised? It is fine to change your mind.


The NFU have declared the no deal scenario to be armageddon for the farming industry.
This is not scaremongering, it is cold reality and you had all better wake up to it.
https://inews.co.uk/news/armageddon-scenario-no-deal-brexit/


If you didn't like so-called mass immigration before, you'd better wake up to taking climate change seriously too. Some of the biggest cities - indeed countries - will become uninhabitable possibly before mid-century, let alone the end of it. Where will those people live? Why are we not talking about it? Have we become that brainwashed? The ONLY way to deal with a challenge of this scale is to team up with other countries. Not take an isolationist view, and pull out of important treaties that attempt to get us back on track and limit the damage - which is just one of the reasons why Donald Trump can fuck right off. There are very many others too.
Incidentally, Trump's America, along with Brazil and other nations with whom you crave a trade deal have indicated that they will block our proposals if we go to WTO rules. At the moment, we want to take 'our share' of quotas from the EU and retain their tariffs but that can only happen with support from the WTO nations - which we don't have. We don't have it because our current position is very strong but our new position would be weak and we won't be able to offer what we can right now (as part of a bloc). You might think this was obvious but apparently not. Lienking thinks we will be ok if we holiday in Bognor and drink scotch. The scotch is all I can agree with him on at the moment. Incidentally, manufacturers of scotch - like all other manufacturers - are desperate for us to stay in the CM. Wonder why?


I do realise that most folk don't want to get into the intricacies of trading arrangements and geopolitical pacts. I also recognise that many people's lives are pretty crap. It is far easier to sell them the emotive dream over the cold reality of life which is why they have been relatively easily exploited. Exploited to the extent that folk living in died in the wool labour constituencies are turning to the hard right fringe of the conservative party and beyond. How desperate must they feel?
However, if you don't want to try to understand the detail - which is fine - then please STFU, get out of the debate, cut the crap, and don't drag our country into a place that will cause untold damage. You do not know more than the leaders of the NHS, the car industry, agriculture, the CBI, the Bank of England, virtually all economists, MPs, the civil service, aviation, defence, social care, construction, science and innovation, university education, pharmaceuticals, banking, telecoms, drinks companies, retail, security agencies, and so on, and so on.
There is no mandate for hard brexit, let alone No Deal at all.
Seriously - who the fuck is left that thinks it is a good idea?

All this talk of No Deal is irresponsible and Immensely Stupid. Yet that is what civil servants are 100% preparing for. This is the utterly ludicrous state that we have come to.


So with that off my chest, it is left to brexiters to come up with a solution that actually works. That will inevitably mean retaining very close links to the rest of the EU because it is in all of our interests.

Or we could stay in.

 

[in_the_top_one]

A report has come by a cross party commission suggesting the government's leaflet was unfair. Let's call it even

link?

 

[in_the_top_one]

Report in our paper today..........

Britain will refuse to pay its 39 billion quid divorce bill to Brussels if the EU fails to agree a trade deal, according to Dominic Raab.

Sounds like fighting talk, hope it's not misplaced.

Literally a ridiculous thing to say.
[Not you. Him.]

 

[in_the_top_one]

As for the dividend there is clearly a dividend-we are saving money on our regular payments. We are net contributors. Its clearly not a dividend in the context of shares but in the end it will be a saving. We will no doubt pay the 40 billion over a number of years. In the end we will be better off.

Evidence?