Bit of Brexit info required. | Page 120 | Vital Football

Bit of Brexit info required.

Lienking said:
How can the default position be we remain? We have implemented Article 50 which means that we leave on the 29th March. As I keep saying, it won't happen, but if Parliament doesn't do anything, what exactly stops us leaving?
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Easy, we are currently in the EU.
We may have triggered Article 50, but we are still in the EU, that is the default position.

If a deal to change that position cannot be agreed in Parliament then the status of our EU membership cannot be changed.

Article 50 is a process which we now know can be reversed at any time. In the end, if Parliament cannot complete that process, then Article 50 will have to be revoked.

At this time the ability to complete the process of leaving or not is totally in the hands of the UK Parliament.
They now need to step upto the plate and make that decision.
 
Lienking said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46393399

If nothing else happens, the default position would be a no-deal Brexit. The law is already in place which means the UK will leave the EU on 29 March 2019. And, in any case, EU rules mean the UK would leave then.

BBC also says we would leave if nothing happens.
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That’s a rather contradictory piece, and a rather biased comment from you.
There are 5 options put forward, of which one is stated as being No Deal.
However the third paragraph states;

It's not clear when MPs will now get the chance to vote, but the Brexit deal cannot be legally implemented until it has been approved by them.

No Deal is still ‘a deal’ So that course of action still needs to be approved by Parliament
 
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Lienking said:
http://theconversation.com/brexit-is-it-possible-to-stop-it-107750

The only way Brexit can be stopped is if the Article 50 notification, triggered in March 2017 to begin the UK’s departure from the EU, is revoked. Under EU law, once Article 50 is triggered, the departing state automatically leaves the EU after two years, unless Article 50 is extended.

So, to stop Brexit, Article 50 would need to be revoked, and, after that, the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 must be repealed. Even if parliamentary approval is not required for the former, it is for the latter.

Quite an interesting article !
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After yesterday we now know the answer
 
Feco said:
Easy, we are currently in the EU.
We may have triggered Article 50, but we are still in the EU, that is the default position.

If a deal to change that position cannot be agreed in Parliament then the status of our EU membership cannot be changed.

Article 50 is a process which we now know can be reversed at any time. In the end, if Parliament cannot complete that process, then Article 50 will have to be revoked.

At this time the ability to complete the process of leaving or not is totally in the hands of the UK Parliament.
They now need to step upto the plate and make that decision.
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Can't believe you don't believe the BBC ! We ARE in the EU, BUT we have activated article 50. The default position is that you automatically leave the EU. Leaving is not a "Brexit deal" , it happens automatically as the BBC and the other article say. That is why MP's are talking about the danger of "crashing out" with no deal, if Parliament doesn't come up with an agreed position!
 
Feco said:
That’s a rather contradictory piece, and a rather biased comment from you.
There are 5 options put forward, of which one is stated as being No Deal.
However the third paragraph states;

It's not clear when MPs will now get the chance to vote, but the Brexit deal cannot be legally implemented until it has been approved by them.

No Deal is still ‘a deal’ So that course of action still needs to be approved by Parliament
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The Brexit Deal is Theresa May's deal, and nothing to do with a no deal Brexit!
 
3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

A third and final try, then I give up ! Direct from article 50. The EU treaties cease to apply from the date of the withdrawal agreement, or failing that (any agreement) they cease to apply two years after notification.

It won't happen, because it isn't what TM wants, but they said on the BBC news that TM is obliged to hold a vote at some stage, but technically she could do this on the 28th March with an accept my deal, or we "crash out" tomorrow. The nearer we get to the 28th March, the less time there is for any alternatives.
 
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Lienking said:
3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

A third and final try, then I give up ! Direct from article 50. The EU treaties cease to apply from the date of the withdrawal agreement, or failing that (any agreement) they cease to apply two years after notification.

It won't happen, because it isn't what TM wants, but they said on the BBC news that TM is obliged to hold a vote at some stage, but technically she could do this on the 28th March with an accept my deal, or we "crash out" tomorrow. The nearer we get to the 28th March, the less time there is for any alternatives.
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So why bother having any of this in Parliament?
According to you then we could just have sat tight for the last couple of years, and would have left with no input from our Government other than triggering Article 50.
 
Lienking said:
Can't believe you don't believe the BBC ! We ARE in the EU, BUT we have activated article 50. The default position is that you automatically leave the EU. Leaving is not a "Brexit deal" , it happens automatically as the BBC and the other article say. That is why MP's are talking about the danger of "crashing out" with no deal, if Parliament doesn't come up with an agreed position!
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Crashing out is entirely in the hands of the MP’s.
 
No need to write "crashing out" in quotes as though it isn't really crashing. It is a very apt term for it. It implies sudden loss of control and an incredibly rapid deceleration with multiple breakages. Usually very expensive to fix if it isn't a complete write off and suitable only for scrap.

Perfect.
 
Feco said:
So why bother having any of this in Parliament?
According to you then we could just have sat tight for the last couple of years, and would have left with no input from our Government other than triggering Article 50.
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Would have thought it's pretty obvious why they are talking about it in Parliament. TM wants a deal. The majority of MPs are remainers as well. There was no legal obligation to negotiate a withdrawal, but obviously it would make sense for both parties to come to some sort of reasoned conclusion. Unfortunately the EU is more interested in dogma than protecting millions of jobs in Ireland, France, Germany etc
 
Lienking said:
Would have thought it's pretty obvious why they are talking about it in Parliament. TM wants a deal. The majority of MPs are remainers as well. There was no legal obligation to negotiate a withdrawal, but obviously it would make sense for both parties to come to some sort of reasoned conclusion. Unfortunately the EU is more interested in dogma than protecting millions of jobs in Ireland, France, Germany etc
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No on second thoughts do give up
 
Lienking said:
Would have thought it's pretty obvious why they are talking about it in Parliament. TM wants a deal. The majority of MPs are remainers as well. There was no legal obligation to negotiate a withdrawal, but obviously it would make sense for both parties to come to some sort of reasoned conclusion. Unfortunately the EU is more interested in dogma than protecting millions of jobs in Ireland, France, Germany etc
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Wow.
 
Feco said:
No on second thoughts do give up
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Feco you have completely lost it in the last 2 pages. Parliament has already legislated and we are leaving on 29 March with or without a deal. Most people want a deal, a fair one that respects the referendum. Labour want power. They are the true betrayers of democracy. If there’s a negotiated deal put to parliament that is what will get voted on and which will need further legislation. The grieve amendment allows arliament to debate amends to a neutral statement if the government can’t agree a deal but I do not believe any amendment passed would be binding on the executive. A change in legislation would have to be proposed by the executive to have full effect.

Looks like there will be a leadership challenge and I hope a leader is chosen who brexiteers can get behind so we can deliver brexit in accordance with the once in a generation decision passed down by the people
 
toms said:
Feco you have completely lost it in the last 2 pages. Parliament has already legislated and we are leaving on 29 March with or without a deal. Most people want a deal, a fair one that respects the referendum. Labour want power. They are the true betrayers of democracy. If there’s a negotiated deal put to parliament that is what will get voted on and which will need further legislation. The grieve amendment allows arliament to debate amends to a neutral statement if the government can’t agree a deal but I do not believe any amendment passed would be binding on the executive. A change in legislation would have to be proposed by the executive to have full effect.

Looks like there will be a leadership challenge and I hope a leader is chosen who brexiteers can get behind so we can deliver brexit in accordance with the once in a generation decision passed down by the people
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Is the process still in the hands of our MP’s?
 
I'm trying to look ahead and not doing very well. Am I correct in assuming that whoever is PM will have no effect on the outcome which is beginning to look to me as though the EU will not change its stance. Meaning presumably that there's a good chance that the UK will leave in March with no agreement in place. That doesn't sound good.

Is it really this bad or have I got the wrong end of the stick.
 
Old Red Fart said:
I'm trying to look ahead and not doing very well. Am I correct in assuming that whoever is PM will have no effect on the outcome which is beginning to look to me as though the EU will not change its stance. Meaning presumably that there's a good chance that the UK will leave in March with no agreement in place. That doesn't sound good.

Is it really this bad or have I got the wrong end of the stick.
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Different PM's may have different policies, but would probably have to extend article 50 to have time to do anything. Amber Rudd seems to favour Norway, Raab says he would accept no deal (but would probably want more time to sort it), Boris, Davies etc were leavers too.

Depends if we get a Remain or Leave PM. Even then though Gina Miller won the case that Parliament has a say, so Government can't just do what they want. The "meaningful vote" could be held on the 28th March though, which would be too late to stop us leaving. I believe the government could also try to ignore the vote!

I would guess TM will get half the votes. She does seem determined to carry on.
 
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