Bit of Brexit info required. | Page 104 | Vital Football

Bit of Brexit info required.

I don't really buy the out of time argument because we can extend the Article 50 deadline. The foolish fixed end date legislation that TM squeaked through parliament can be changed. Certainly easier to change that than the Belfast Agreement.
 
I think that I may be starting to lose the plot. I've never understood all of the ramifications and never expected to but broadly speaking you fellows have kept me pretty well informed of the main situation.
Our news outlets over here are starting to get more involved now that things are drawing to a close and we're beginning to get a bit more detailed information. It seems obvious that Brexit is here to stay and that it's just a question of agreeing terms. And of course that's the sticking point.
There's no way that a solution is going to suit everyone and from a purely personal point of view I think Mrs May has done well to get this far. Most folk would have walked away. There seem to have been a good many politicions who seem to be quick to complain but not so willing to help out. If what I think is correct her ideas will leave the UK in good touch with the EU which is vital.

All my opinion and subject to being corrected.
 
Judging by this thread you need to add Toms and Lienking to your list of those who still think that No Deal (wherever that means?) is a possibility.

My understanding is No Deal is the default position. As we've said before even "No Deal" will have to have some agreements on flights etc.
Buzzfeed now says over 50% of TORY MP's have now said they will vote against the deal. Even if they only abstain, are a similar number of Labour MP's going to abstain, or over half the number support her?

Was reading about the option of Ukraine plus, which is another one to add to the list of Canada plus, Norway plus, Switzerland plus, or the one we seem to be heading for WTO plus!
 
Beginning to think that TM is as deluded as Trump, unless she has some massive cards up her sleeve. At the moment it looks like the vote is about 200 for and about 450 against this deal. What does she know that we don't ? Has she got a hidden blackmail list or something!?
 
What is the alternative?
No deal has been ruled out by everyone now, even the most ardent leavers, except the deluded halfwits of the ERG have accepted that it is not an option.
Nobody likes the proposed deal, even in the EU, but there are no other options available now.
Westminster will be interesting, expect a lot of abstentions from Labour, and not to much rebellion from the Tories. They can’t even drum up 48 letters........
Bottom line is nobody wants to be the cause of the economic catastrophe that would occur if the deal wasn’t passed. So it’s the current deal or no Brexit.

I would happily except no Brexit, but I don’t think that’s an option either, politically or legally.

So it’s the deal as put forward.......

By the way the French walked out of the talks today......such showboating!!

The alternative is obvious. People's vote, scrap brexit altogether cos it's a worse deal than wot we've got. In the current fooking world craziness I should have thought we need more, not less collective action.
 
We probably have to wait for the pricks to vote the deal down b4 they finally have no where to go but back to the people where they should be going anyway. Still no signs of leadership from Labour but members cranking up the heat
 
The alternative is obvious. People's vote, scrap brexit altogether cos it's a worse deal than wot we've got. In the current fooking world craziness I should have thought we need more, not less collective action.
I don’t disagree.....but, both parties keep wittering on about the ‘will of the people’.....neither party will commit to a second referendum.
There is no alternative....it’s BRINO.
 
Just seen this thread on Twitter chaps. If only we'd all #BelievedInBrexit a bit more! Happy reading. Bon Soir!

THREAD - On this historic occasion, let us recall some of what was promised specifically on this deal: “There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside.” David Davis 10 October 2016

“Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy – the UK holds most of the cards.” John Redwood July 17 2016

“The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history.” Liam Fox 20 July 2017

“We're not really interested in a transition deal, but we'll consider one to be kind to the EU.” David Davis 15 November 2016

“I believe that we can get a free trade and customs agreement concluded before March 2019.” David Davis 18 January 2017

“Indeed, [a trade deal] would take significantly less than two years. We hold all the cards. We will offer them a deal in response to their pleas for help.” Patrick Minford

“I am not worried about transitional arrangements. I am prepared to take the economic hit to secure the economic benefits of not being inside the Single Market and being outside the Customs Union. I simply want... a quickie divorce.” Michael Gove 17 November 2016

“We are going to get a deal which is of huge value and possibly of greater value.” Boris Johnson 16 November 2016

“Within two years, before the negotiation with the EU is likely to be complete, we can negotiate a free trade area massively larger than the EU. The new trade agreements will come into force at the point of exit, but they will be fully negotiated.” David Davis 14 July 2016

“Trade relations with the EU could be sorted out in an afternoon over a cup of coffee.” Gerard Batten 17 February 2017

“Within minutes of a vote for Brexit, CEOs would be knocking down Chancellor Merkel’s door demanding access to the British market.” David Davis 4 February 2016

“The cost of getting out would be virtually nil and the cost of staying in would be very high.” Boris Johnson 6 March 2016

“I think we could very easily get a better trade deal than we have at the moment.” Douglas Carswell 8 June 2016

“All David Davis needs to say to is: listen guys free trade or WTO?” Tim Martin 2 January 2017

"It will be easy to negotiate a trade deal. It's in the EU's interests." Paul Nutall 17 January 2017

"Nobody ever pretended this would be simple or easy." David Davis 5 September 2017

And this by David Davis last week deserves pride of place on the thread: “If we need to leave with no deal and negotiate a free trade agreement during the transition period, so be it.” Leave with no deal (so no transition period) and negotiate it during the transition period.
 
My understanding is No Deal is the default position. As we've said before even "No Deal" will have to have some agreements on flights etc.
Buzzfeed now says over 50% of TORY MP's have now said they will vote against the deal. Even if they only abstain, are a similar number of Labour MP's going to abstain, or over half the number support her?

Was reading about the option of Ukraine plus, which is another one to add to the list of Canada plus, Norway plus, Switzerland plus, or the one we seem to be heading for WTO plus!

That will be the Tweet from Alan Wickham MP......although what he actually said was something quite different. He actually tweeted that by his count, 50% of Tory MPs couldn’t vote for the deal. He never said anything about voting against it.....that’s a massive difference.

I reckon this will be the path the bill follows. First vote, it won’t get through. The markets will bomb after the vote. The MPs will panic. There will be few amendments to the bill, and another vote, where it will pass. It will be carefully Choreographed to ensure it happens with many abstentions so as not to make it look obvious.

It’s all a fudge.....look at today’s document, 28 pages of non-binding nonsense that essentially says that the UK and EU will ‘strive’ to work together in the future. It has absolutely no substance.
It’s now becoming a masterclass in fake news.

BRINO it is.......we can now put UK +++ alongside Canada+, Norway+ etc etc.

I’m beginning to feel like Bozzi
 
Just seen this thread on Twitter chaps. If only we'd all #BelievedInBrexit a bit more! Happy reading. Bon Soir!

THREAD - On this historic occasion, let us recall some of what was promised specifically on this deal: “There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside.” David Davis 10 October 2016

“Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy – the UK holds most of the cards.” John Redwood July 17 2016

“The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history.” Liam Fox 20 July 2017

“We're not really interested in a transition deal, but we'll consider one to be kind to the EU.” David Davis 15 November 2016

“I believe that we can get a free trade and customs agreement concluded before March 2019.” David Davis 18 January 2017

“Indeed, [a trade deal] would take significantly less than two years. We hold all the cards. We will offer them a deal in response to their pleas for help.” Patrick Minford

“I am not worried about transitional arrangements. I am prepared to take the economic hit to secure the economic benefits of not being inside the Single Market and being outside the Customs Union. I simply want... a quickie divorce.” Michael Gove 17 November 2016

“We are going to get a deal which is of huge value and possibly of greater value.” Boris Johnson 16 November 2016

“Within two years, before the negotiation with the EU is likely to be complete, we can negotiate a free trade area massively larger than the EU. The new trade agreements will come into force at the point of exit, but they will be fully negotiated.” David Davis 14 July 2016

“Trade relations with the EU could be sorted out in an afternoon over a cup of coffee.” Gerard Batten 17 February 2017

“Within minutes of a vote for Brexit, CEOs would be knocking down Chancellor Merkel’s door demanding access to the British market.” David Davis 4 February 2016

“The cost of getting out would be virtually nil and the cost of staying in would be very high.” Boris Johnson 6 March 2016

“I think we could very easily get a better trade deal than we have at the moment.” Douglas Carswell 8 June 2016

“All David Davis needs to say to is: listen guys free trade or WTO?” Tim Martin 2 January 2017

"It will be easy to negotiate a trade deal. It's in the EU's interests." Paul Nutall 17 January 2017

"Nobody ever pretended this would be simple or easy." David Davis 5 September 2017

And this by David Davis last week deserves pride of place on the thread: “If we need to leave with no deal and negotiate a free trade agreement during the transition period, so be it.” Leave with no deal (so no transition period) and negotiate it during the transition period.

You have to admit it’s gone very well so far......
 
AC, if I didn't know any better I'd swear you were talking about us over here in Oz.
That's presuming that all the names you mention are Members of Parliament.
 
That will be the Tweet from Alan Wickham MP......although what he actually said was something quite different. He actually tweeted that by his count, 50% of Tory MPs couldn’t vote for the deal. He never said anything about voting against it.....that’s a massive difference.

I reckon this will be the path the bill follows. First vote, it won’t get through. The markets will bomb after the vote. The MPs will panic. There will be few amendments to the bill, and another vote, where it will pass. It will be carefully Choreographed to ensure it happens with many abstentions so as not to make it look obvious.

It’s all a fudge.....look at today’s document, 28 pages of non-binding nonsense that essentially says that the UK and EU will ‘strive’ to work together in the future. It has absolutely no substance.
It’s now becoming a masterclass in fake news.

BRINO it is.......we can now put UK +++ alongside Canada+, Norway+ etc etc.

I’m beginning to feel like Bozzi

Been tried 'successfully' before but it isn't a good idea.
Here is Robert Peston's explanation of the same thing.
"
Amber Rudd on the Today Prog gave the game away this morning about how the prime minister and the cabinet expect to get the government's divisive Brexit plan through parliament.

She did not demur from what seems right now a self-evident truth, that MPs will reject the deal when given their "meaningful vote" on it.

But MPs would then stare into the "abyss", she said, recognise that a no-deal Brexit would be a disaster and another referendum too risky, and would then approve the deal - perhaps slightly modified - when brought back to them a second time.

This is what ministers refer to as the "TARP model" - as recently coined by the former government aide, Rupert Harrison.

For the uninitiated, TARP was the US scheme to bail out bust banks after the Crash in 2008. It was initially rejected by Congress, which caused the stock market to collapse. And at that point senators and members of the House of Representative panicked and voted through a modified version of the scheme.

So what May, her ministers and her chief whip are banking on (to coin a phrase) is that as and when MPs reject her Brexit plan, the stock market and sterling (in particular) would tank - which would so scare Tory rebel MPs (the Cabinet hopes) that they would at that juncture be persuaded to recant and back May's deal.

It is all very plausible. It is also dangerous.

Brexit was supposed to be all about taking back control, forever.

If a Brexit deal that a majority of MPs currently reject as being an affront to the UK's right to democratic self-determination were then passed because of fear that otherwise the country would be punished by international investors, by big capital, this would be rich and fertile territory for extremists and populists to exploit.

Brexit was billed by its proponents as being a moment of freedom. It would be profoundly unhealthy for confidence in our democracy if what many see as a degraded Brexit was adopted merely because our MPs panicked in the face of a market rout."
 
Nearly all of them, ORF!
The one quoted the most, Davis, was the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU for two years!

Alongside the last quote of pure ignorant idiocy, you can add the gem that the day after the referendum he was going to go to Germany to negotiate a deal on cars! People asked, "what part of Single Market do you not understand?" The answer was clearly all of it, and he had learnt virtually nothing of importance to that job in all the time since. He is an idiot.
 
Dominic Raab said this morning that the deal negotiated while he was in charge of negotiating our exit is worse than staying in the EU.

While just calling the whole thing off would be best for the country in so many ways, this now has to go back to the people for a democratic mandate to do so.
 
Been tried 'successfully' before but it isn't a good idea.
Here is Robert Peston's explanation of the same thing.
"
Amber Rudd on the Today Prog gave the game away this morning about how the prime minister and the cabinet expect to get the government's divisive Brexit plan through parliament.

She did not demur from what seems right now a self-evident truth, that MPs will reject the deal when given their "meaningful vote" on it.

But MPs would then stare into the "abyss", she said, recognise that a no-deal Brexit would be a disaster and another referendum too risky, and would then approve the deal - perhaps slightly modified - when brought back to them a second time.

This is what ministers refer to as the "TARP model" - as recently coined by the former government aide, Rupert Harrison.

For the uninitiated, TARP was the US scheme to bail out bust banks after the Crash in 2008. It was initially rejected by Congress, which caused the stock market to collapse. And at that point senators and members of the House of Representative panicked and voted through a modified version of the scheme.

So what May, her ministers and her chief whip are banking on (to coin a phrase) is that as and when MPs reject her Brexit plan, the stock market and sterling (in particular) would tank - which would so scare Tory rebel MPs (the Cabinet hopes) that they would at that juncture be persuaded to recant and back May's deal.

It is all very plausible. It is also dangerous.

Brexit was supposed to be all about taking back control, forever.

If a Brexit deal that a majority of MPs currently reject as being an affront to the UK's right to democratic self-determination were then passed because of fear that otherwise the country would be punished by international investors, by big capital, this would be rich and fertile territory for extremists and populists to exploit.

Brexit was billed by its proponents as being a moment of freedom. It would be profoundly unhealthy for confidence in our democracy if what many see as a degraded Brexit was adopted merely because our MPs panicked in the face of a market rout."

I agree it’s a shocking way to determine something so fundumentally important to the future of this country, but that’s what you get as a result of a process that so flawed from the offset.

Will we be worse off with BRINO than we are now? Absolutely, but at least it’s better than what was being proposed in the summer.
It has also brought No Brexit into play. For that alone Mrs May deserves some credit.
 
Nearly all of them, ORF!
The one quoted the most, Davis, was the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU for two years!

Alongside the last quote of pure ignorant idiocy, you can add the gem that the day after the referendum he was going to go to Germany to negotiate a deal on cars! People asked, "what part of Single Market do you not understand?" The answer was clearly all of it, and he had learnt virtually nothing of importance to that job in all the time since. He is an idiot.

Think you are being rather kind to Mr Davis there.
 
Dominic Raab said this morning that the deal negotiated while he was in charge of negotiating our exit is worse than staying in the EU.

While just calling the whole thing off would be best for the country in so many ways, this now has to go back to the people for a democratic mandate to do so.

Yes, like Raab, numerous leavers have said they would rather stay in the EU than back the deal. However you have missed out the fact that most of these people have also said they would rather leave under WTO or an actual leave deal than stay. Virtually none of them have actually said they want to stay or have a second referendum, that's just a giant leap of your logic, because that's what you want.