BARNSLEY WILL GO DOWN | Page 3 | Vital Football

BARNSLEY WILL GO DOWN

pies'r'us

Vital Youth Team
#41
Pies....i feel sure I speak for many but can i just place on record our gratitude for the info and clarifications you have provided. Don't feel the need to explain yourself to anyone as you played a blinder when most of us were non-plussed about the whole thing.

Continue to supply information to whatever body you want in order to expose the shitstorm that's gone on.

Good lad and respect.
Many thanks Hindley and to other members for your support. But I'm sure if you and they had my experience and skill you would have all done the same to help our club.

However, I'm pissed off re 12 points - I'm a very bad loser. But two weeks ago I decide upon an pre-emptive strike and start to give Choi a good kicking. I reporting some of his dubious actions to HK stock Exchage. I know has misled his shareholders which is unlawful. I received a confidential reply... I can't reveal contents... but i smiled and thought F***ing great! But hindley, you haven't to tell anybody else - it's a secret between you and me - OK!

I'm not being racist but I've had dealings with Chines business folks. I found their ethics not to be quiet in line with mine. After a few dodgy transactions I raised the deposit threshold etc. etc - get mi drift? BUT one thing I realised was that they were very concerned about their credit rating and CV's. That's why Choi went to minority shareholder in NLF. This 'debacle wont show on his CV. He's had a other 'shady' deals but managed to slide his way out of the firing line. That's why he has this labyrinth of the holding companies and they're all registered in Cayman. It's all for a purpose. Credibility is absolutely everything in 'the City' whether it be HK, Japan, London, New York. Believe it or not; billion pound deals are done on trust/creditability

Au Yeung is a stooge. This 'property' man apparently can throw away £40million. as he did by his actions with us. Therefore, that suggests he's in the circa billionaire class.

Isn't it bloody strange; I've asked business bods and no one in Hong Kong can find him. I mean; surely he'll he'll have a multi storey business block, society profile etc. etc. Someone with that wealth can't be hard to find - can they? The only info I received is; he has an HK identity. It's a con.. a sham..

If nowt else; i intend to destroy Choi's credibility and his share price.

Finally, (are you still awake Hindley?) IF the '£24.6 million loan agreement exists, which on my reading of the sale agreement does. The EFL are culpable and have failed to provide due diligence. My last 'warning' email to them finished off with:
"I've seen this fim before it's got a very bad ending for our fans and our town.. Shame on the EFL"
 

hindleymonwafc

Vital Football Hero
#42
All good stuff pies...can I just ask 1 last question.

This 24 million loan will he be getting any of it back ? All, nowt or 25p in the pound ?

Hope the bastard is due nowt.

Just to add...if we were an army marching you'd be the lad with the flag...our standard bearer.

Keep it up pal.
 
#43
This 24 million loan will he be getting any of it back ? All, nowt or 25p in the pound ?

Hope the bastard is due nowt.
I'm sure Krasner mentioned this and said they were looking at a way to not pay this back. If it's true and we don't get penalised for it then that would be amazing. In fact I would take a 15 point deduction if it meant those rats over in Asia don't get a single penny.
 

pies'r'us

Vital Youth Team
#44
All good stuff pies...can I just ask 1 last question.

This 24 million loan will he be getting any of it back ? All, nowt or 25p in the pound ?

Hope the bastard is due nowt.

Just to add...if we were an army marching you'd be the lad with the flag...our standard bearer.

Keep it up pal.
Thanks again Hindley.. I've just wet mi briches.... This vision of an owld geezer with bad leg and bad back and bad shoulder.. floundering around trying to to carry the flag.. people aft howld him up... I had this surreal image of king Henry V at battle of Agincourt crying out 'Into the breach once more... 'God for Harry! England! and Saint George!... Where's the flag bearer? Oh fuckin hell.. don't tell me he's fawed again...

If the the loan is 'official' then new owner will take on the burden. If not, we go into liquidation then Choi will get X in the pound (depending on assets) but next to nowt. But as I said earlier if we go into liquidation; he'll write it off against profits on his other business. So it's a win win for him.

I read about what Krasner will or will not do. Be under no illusion Choi will eat him for dinner. I said to a few journos early doors; Wigan were looking for a benefactor but we ended up with a predator. they all agreed.

The 'problem' with people like Choi is; after awhile they think they are superior and invincible and because of this, sooner or later they make errors. Think back to 'Star Wars' and the think about all the armour protection with the 'death star'. Luke Skywalker found the 'soft spot'. Thats the name of the game with Choi.... I found it... he treated his shareholders unlawfully.
 

moonay

Vital Champions League
#45
Krasner has said before that he can find no charge on the club with respect to that loan.

I forget where it was written when he said that about the loan ...... but the following is an extract of something very similar ........the full report, which is linked.....

Krasner said the bid, for the club, DW Stadium and two training grounds, would pay all players and other “football creditors” in full, and a further £1.5m, representing a quarter of the £6m the club owes to “non-football creditors.” That £6m total owed to unsecured, non-football creditors is separate from a £24m-£25m loan thought to be owed to the club’s Hong Kong-based owner Au Yeung, which Krasner said he is hoping not to repay at all.

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...ree-sale-of-club-that-could-secure-its-future
 

pies'r'us

Vital Youth Team
#46
Krasner has said before that he can find no charge on the club with respect to that loan.

I forget where it was written when he said that about the loan ...... but the following is an extract of something very similar ........the full report, which is linked.....

Krasner said the bid, for the club, DW Stadium and two training grounds, would pay all players and other “football creditors” in full, and a further £1.5m, representing a quarter of the £6m the club owes to “non-football creditors.” That £6m total owed to unsecured, non-football creditors is separate from a £24m-£25m loan thought to be owed to the club’s Hong Kong-based owner Au Yeung, which Krasner said he is hoping not to repay at all.

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...ree-sale-of-club-that-could-secure-its-future
I have provided loads of stuff about this 'loan' previously, obviously been missed or I've not explained it clearly. The problem is – it is a bit complicated but I would love and hope to be wrong.

First, Krasner will not find a charge on the properties. This is a loan agreement between IEC and the club (NLF). One of Krasners first jobs was to check with IEC about this loan.

IMO the documents issued by IEC shows overwhelmingly IMO, a loan exists.

IEC doc 14 Feb 2020

Page 12:

"Regarding the Loan Agreement, comparing with the prevailing interest rate for time deposits being offered by banks to the public, the interest rate under the Loan Agreement is attractive and favourable for the Company. The Company considers that the Loan Agreement will generate a stable interest income and offer a higher return to the Group when comparing with the interest to be earned by making a Hong Kong dollar time deposit with financial institutions in Hong Kong".

You also need to read definitions below

Page 14:

‘‘Completion’’ the completion of the Disposal

‘‘Disposal’’ the proposed disposal of the Sale Shares pursuant to the Sale and Purchase Agreement ‘‘Disposal Company’’ Newworth Ventures Limited, a company incorporated in the British Virgin Islands and is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Company

‘‘Loan Agreement’’ a loan agreement to be entered into between the Company and the Club upon Completion in respect of the Facility

‘‘Club’’ Wigan Athletic A.F.C. Limited, an indirect subsidiary of the Company and a member of the Group as at the date of this announcement

In May, An EGM was held and the 'loan agreement' resolution was passed by 100% majority. This was not unexpected. In the IEC 'sale' letter to shareholders their advisors MESSI CAPITAL state;

As at the Latest Practicable Date, the Club was indebted to the Company of approximately GBP24.36 million as a result of the injection of daily working capital of the Club by the Company since the completion of the Acquisition in 2018 by way of shareholders’ loan without any interest. Upon Completion, the Club will no longer be the member of the Group. The Company aims to secure the interest of the Company and the Shareholders by entering into the Loan Agreement with the Club which serves to charge the Pre-existing Loan at 8% interest rate per annum to the Club and recoups the principal amount of Pre-existing Loan.”

It goes on to state:

Use of proceeds :

After deducting expenses relating to the Disposal, it is expected that the Company will receive the net proceeds of approximately GBP £16.37 million, which is intended to be used for general working capital of the Group, for the repayment and settlement of the outstanding debts of the Group, and/or for any potential investment opportunities that might occur.”

NOTE: They don't quote £40 million which is the aggregate of the sale price of the club PLUS the outstanding loan. Nor in the sale document agreement between IEC and NLF.

When business buy/sell there are always pre conditions/caveats. If you revert to when IEC bought us; Choi's terms were that Dave had to pay off Barclays overdraft circa £11m. Dave agreed and did so.

There are no conditions on par with the above with the NLF purchase. So what we are left with is; NLF paid £17.4 million for Wigan Athletic with debts of £9m plus an outstanding loan of £24.6m and it's averaging losing £160k a week. YOU NEED TO THINK OBJECTIVELY ABOUT THOSE FIGURES – FORGET FOOTBALL!

At no prior point did Au Yeung say he would pay the outstanding loan.

Finally; I repeat what I've stated previously. Choi is not an idiot, he's smart and he's a predator. He will tie Dave, Krasner, the QC me and you up into knots. He has no morals or ethics. Where you and me might consider how our actions may damage someone else. He doesn't – think Mafia..

If you want to suggest he's waived or not implemented the loan - I cannot see him 'walking away' from £24 million.

One of the original questions in 2018 was; 'What does a small HK hotel company want to buy....'

Be wary about journalists story's etc. Newspapers don't sell with blank white pages. In God we trust!

I hope you appreciate I have provided a lot of time and effort dealing with this. If you want to accept a journos or anyone else's opinion. be free but I will not be resonding further. And instead of relying on others, why dont you do as I suggested on May 10th - go onto HKex and IEC website for absolute clarity.
 

OnLoanfromEnfield

Vital Squad Member
#47
The Loan ! The Loan !

https://www1.hkexnews.hk/listedco/listconews/sehk/2020/0529/2020052901522.pdf

In accordance with the Sale and Purchase Agreement, upon Completion, the Company (as the lender) and the Club (as the borrower) entered into the Loan Agreement in an aggregate principal amount of GBP24.36 million (equivalent to approximately HK$232.08 million),and the Deed of Guarantee was also entered into by the Purchaser in favour of the Company along with the Loan Agreement. Details and background of the Loan Agreement and Deed of Guarantee are set out in the Circular. Immediately subsequent to the entering into of the Loan Agreement, the Pre-Existing Loan in the amount GBP24.36 million (equivalent to approximately HK$232.08 million) has been repaid to the Company, and as a result, the Club is no longer indebted to the Company.
 

moonay

Vital Champions League
#48
I have provided loads of stuff about this 'loan' previously, obviously been missed or I've not explained it clearly.
Pies, I fully accept that you've proven that the loan from IEC to NLF took place...... on paper at least. However, Krasner has said that nowhere in the Wigan books does it show that the loan was transferred to the club. Certainly, it seems, the money didn't find it's way into our accounts.

In parallel, as OLFE shows, the loan has already been repaid to IEC.

Money laundering? No idea. Regardless, it seems that this loan is not our (WAFC) problem.
 

hindleymonwafc

Vital Football Hero
#49
I have provided loads of stuff about this 'loan' previously, obviously been missed or I've not explained it clearly. The problem is – it is a bit complicated but I would love and hope to be wrong.

First, Krasner will not find a charge on the properties. This is a loan agreement between IEC and the club (NLF). One of Krasners first jobs was to check with IEC about this loan.

IMO the documents issued by IEC shows overwhelmingly IMO, a loan exists.

IEC doc 14 Feb 2020

Page 12:

"Regarding the Loan Agreement, comparing with the prevailing interest rate for time deposits being offered by banks to the public, the interest rate under the Loan Agreement is attractive and favourable for the Company. The Company considers that the Loan Agreement will generate a stable interest income and offer a higher return to the Group when comparing with the interest to be earned by making a Hong Kong dollar time deposit with financial institutions in Hong Kong".

You also need to read definitions below

Page 14:

‘‘Completion’’ the completion of the Disposal

‘‘Disposal’’ the proposed disposal of the Sale Shares pursuant to the Sale and Purchase Agreement ‘‘Disposal Company’’ Newworth Ventures Limited, a company incorporated in the British Virgin Islands and is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Company

‘‘Loan Agreement’’ a loan agreement to be entered into between the Company and the Club upon Completion in respect of the Facility

‘‘Club’’ Wigan Athletic A.F.C. Limited, an indirect subsidiary of the Company and a member of the Group as at the date of this announcement

In May, An EGM was held and the 'loan agreement' resolution was passed by 100% majority. This was not unexpected. In the IEC 'sale' letter to shareholders their advisors MESSI CAPITAL state;

As at the Latest Practicable Date, the Club was indebted to the Company of approximately GBP24.36 million as a result of the injection of daily working capital of the Club by the Company since the completion of the Acquisition in 2018 by way of shareholders’ loan without any interest. Upon Completion, the Club will no longer be the member of the Group. The Company aims to secure the interest of the Company and the Shareholders by entering into the Loan Agreement with the Club which serves to charge the Pre-existing Loan at 8% interest rate per annum to the Club and recoups the principal amount of Pre-existing Loan.”

It goes on to state:

Use of proceeds :

After deducting expenses relating to the Disposal, it is expected that the Company will receive the net proceeds of approximately GBP £16.37 million, which is intended to be used for general working capital of the Group, for the repayment and settlement of the outstanding debts of the Group, and/or for any potential investment opportunities that might occur.”

NOTE: They don't quote £40 million which is the aggregate of the sale price of the club PLUS the outstanding loan. Nor in the sale document agreement between IEC and NLF.

When business buy/sell there are always pre conditions/caveats. If you revert to when IEC bought us; Choi's terms were that Dave had to pay off Barclays overdraft circa £11m. Dave agreed and did so.

There are no conditions on par with the above with the NLF purchase. So what we are left with is; NLF paid £17.4 million for Wigan Athletic with debts of £9m plus an outstanding loan of £24.6m and it's averaging losing £160k a week. YOU NEED TO THINK OBJECTIVELY ABOUT THOSE FIGURES – FORGET FOOTBALL!

At no prior point did Au Yeung say he would pay the outstanding loan.

Finally; I repeat what I've stated previously. Choi is not an idiot, he's smart and he's a predator. He will tie Dave, Krasner, the QC me and you up into knots. He has no morals or ethics. Where you and me might consider how our actions may damage someone else. He doesn't – think Mafia..

If you want to suggest he's waived or not implemented the loan - I cannot see him 'walking away' from £24 million.

One of the original questions in 2018 was; 'What does a small HK hotel company want to buy....'

Be wary about journalists story's etc. Newspapers don't sell with blank white pages. In God we trust!

I hope you appreciate I have provided a lot of time and effort dealing with this. If you want to accept a journos or anyone else's opinion. be free but I will not be resonding further. And instead of relying on others, why dont you do as I suggested on May 10th - go onto HKex and IEC website for absolute clarity.
In short...we are up to our neck in shite.
 

pies'r'us

Vital Youth Team
#51
Pies, I fully accept that you've proven that the loan from IEC to NLF took place...... on paper at least. However, Krasner has said that nowhere in the Wigan books does it show that the loan was transferred to the club. Certainly, it seems, the money didn't find it's way into our accounts.

In parallel, as OLFE shows, the loan has already been repaid to IEC.

Money laundering? No idea. Regardless, it seems that this loan is not our (WAFC) problem.
The obviously you haven't grasped all the realivant details nor do you understand how these things work. Money Laundering? FFS.

Whether or not you cant nor don't want to understand I can't tell. I have seen you go on and on and on and on on other threads infinitum. You seem like a person who doesn't like to be wrong. I now realise I made a wrong decision in answering you.

Isn't it a shame you didn't get involved and provide your cognitive skill when I asked people to help in May. You could have saved us all load of time.

Re read OLFE's quote it's refering to the 'pre existing loan' which has been repaid. BUT it was never 'transferred' to the clubs bank in Wigan. The £24.6m loan and trade debts of £9m are already on Wigan's books.
It's a common method of switching liability. It's an agreement to reallocate ownership

When I see/hear a counter definitve statement I'll believe it.

However, the prospective purchasers lawyer will have a duty of care to make sure all iabilities are identified.
 

moonay

Vital Champions League
#53
The obviously you haven't grasped all the realivant details nor do you understand how these things work. Money Laundering? FFS.

Whether or not you cant nor don't want to understand I can't tell. I have seen you go on and on and on and on on other threads infinitum. You seem like a person who doesn't like to be wrong. I now realise I made a wrong decision in answering you.

Isn't it a shame you didn't get involved and provide your cognitive skill when I asked people to help in May. You could have saved us all load of time.

Re read OLFE's quote it's refering to the 'pre existing loan' which has been repaid. BUT it was never 'transferred' to the clubs bank in Wigan. The £24.6m loan and trade debts of £9m are already on Wigan's books.
It's a common method of switching liability. It's an agreement to reallocate ownership

When I see/hear a counter definitve statement I'll believe it.

However, the prospective purchasers lawyer will have a duty of care to make sure all iabilities are identified.
You really don't like being questioned, do you? I've rarely seen anyone as touchy.

Reading the statement OLFE posted, it seems to me that "and as a result, the Club is no longer indebted to the Company" is quite clear.

I'll ignore the petty stuff about not getting involved previously. You seem to be unable to grasp that there's a difference between undertaking the analysis, and then asking (intelligent) questions about it.

You ask for a "counter definitive statement"...... Krasner gave it........ in his briefing on July 8th. Can't find a link to it, but he said then that he could find no evidence of WAFC owing that money. If I'm wrong, I'll happily hold up my hand.

To finish Pies, maybe you should reflect on the way you respond to other posters. For all your excellent analysis, your prickly persona (on here at least) does you no service. Suggesting someone needs a brain transplant? What kind of a response is that?
 

TS_Latics

Vital Youth Team
#54
Could an option be to pay the football creditors, pay the 25p in the pound to any other creditors and then for a new owner to buy the trade and assets into a newco thereby leaving the onerous loan (which is to a related party) in old co which can then be liquidated with nothing in it?

Don’t know whether IEC could challenge that structure or if it would be allowed by the FA/EFL rules?
 

king_dezeeuw06

Vital Football Hero
#56
As each preferred bidder or just bidders are being put off by summat...they can see the can of worms. This is getting pretty bad.
Reducing the wage bill and paying off 6m outstanding football debts are what is the hold up according to the Administrators.

Wage bill reduced heavily by relegation not quite 50% but that still leaves us millions higher than what Admin said the aim was before this new wage cap. We have to pay transfer installments to Barnsley, Everton and Portsmouth and July's wage bill is due but players not paid yet which is apparently in region of 1m.

Basically we need to sell at least 6m worth of players asap to avoid 15 point penalty and clear the debts before the buyers will commit from what it appears.

Looking like Moore 1.5, Robinson 1.5, Geldhardt 1m, then probably at least one of Kipre, Lowe or Williams will be out the door before new owner takes the reigns.
 

king_dezeeuw06

Vital Football Hero
#57
To finish Pies, maybe you should reflect on the way you respond to other posters. For all your excellent analysis, your prickly persona (on here at least) does you no service. Suggesting someone needs a brain transplant? What kind of a response is that?
Spot on. Moonay, myself and others have made a number of perfectly reasonable and respectful counter points yet are so often met with basic accusations of being stupid or in denial. Just needless.
 

Mighty Bongsmon

Vital Squad Member
#58
The obviously you haven't grasped all the realivant details nor do you understand how these things work.
No offence Pies but you posted a whole load of stuff on here that you claimed as proof that Latics were going to win the appeal "Barnsley will go down" ring any bells??

So maybe rather than criticising others and claiming they don't understand or need brain transplants, you don't actually know or understand anywhere near as much as you think you do - whether you've spent 70hrs researching it or not :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

moonay

Vital Champions League
#60
Where has anybody mentioned anybody needing a new brain....?

Listen, what everybody needs to understand is that super clever folk like pies and me get exasperated when not as clever folk like moonay don't grasp some of the uber complicated stuff we sometimes put on here.

No offence meant, it's not our fault we are so clever.
Pies did mate. To Oscar, I think. ........along with a couple of other tasty insults.

I get the frustration re others not fully getting all the details of his hard work, but there's a way of venting that frustration ................. and Pies hasn't quite got the hang of that.