Brexit Day!

[Lienking]

You really are not getting this are you

Of course I am. My view is different to yours, but you haven't posted any facts of how many conservative councillors have been in the audience compared to Labour ones. According to the BBC, the audience is made up of a representative audience of that area. When talking about Brexit in London, it's clear that the audience is more anti-Brexit, whereas in the North it's pro-Brexit. When it's in Scotland the audience has a high proportion of SNP people. Whether the same can be said of the panel is another matter.

 

[Pope John XXIII]

Wages are usually paid by employers ! The government needs to accelerate capital investment tax allowances to add productivity. If companies can't simply bring in foreign chefs, plumbers, construction workers etc they will need to invest more in training and retaining staff, which hopefully will reduce the amount of zero hour contracts, and "self employed" people working in the gig economy. With no unlimited cheap labour supply, employers will need to start looking after workers again.

And where is the money coming from?

I didn't realise all our businesses were so profitable that they can afford to suddenly up wages and invest in training without passing that on in higher prices.

Please show me the evidence that this is the case.

And when you say "cheap" labour, what do you mean? After all, the minimum wage is £8.20 whether you are English or Polish. If you work in retail, hospitality or just about any "low skilled" job, this is the money you get regardless of nationality. This will remain what employers wish to pay employees.

What precisely is going to change this?

I take your point about the stereotype of the cheap Polish builder or plumber.

That isn't going to make a hotel suddenly train its own plumber or construction worker though. It would be nice if it did, but it won't.

Part of the problem is that we have an education system that pointlessly holds on to students until they are 18, where about 80% of provision is based on A Levels, which are only useful for getting to university, a generation of parents who are stigmatised against vocational qualifications a government with no interest in financially funding a sudden change in focus (the current mantra is bollocks about "cultural capital, basically giving a middle class education to all) and no incentive for engineering, computing or vocational teachers to leave those lucrative fields for a crap job in teaching. Before you start, this is not the fault nor the desire of schools or teachers.

So where are the British workers doing these jobs going to come from? They will be more expensive (cheap labour is over) and they will charge more. Where is that coming from if it isn't being passed on to the consumer?

 

[da fuq]

Of course I am. My view is different to yours, but you haven't posted any facts of how many conservative councillors have been in the audience compared to Labour ones. According to the BBC, the audience is made up of a representative audience of that area. When talking about Brexit in London, it's clear that the audience is more anti-Brexit, whereas in the North it's pro-Brexit. When it's in Scotland the audience has a high proportion of SNP people. Whether the same can be said of the panel is another matter.

It really is like trying to explain something to a bowl of porridge

You need help fella

 

[JC21]

Pope, why are you always going on about the level of education and the referendum? The only reason I can see is that it's your (extremely thinly) veiled way of saying leavers are thick and remainers are intelligent. Does the level of education really make a difference? There could be many reasons for the correlation:

- The better educated have better jobs that aren't so much under threat by the import of labour.

- The better educated have undergone a process of indoctrination. Up until now I haven't mentioned this but I have a degree in Economics. When I look back it was actually a period of indoctrination and I fell for it at the time. Yes we learned the usual microeconomics/macroeconomics, econometrics, banking/money supply (funnily enough though not the Ponzi scheme of the central bankers), GATT, WTO, Bretton Woods, etc, etc but among all that was 'how good' the Maastricht Treaty and the EU (that was yet to be formed as it is now) was going to be.

- The better educated, in general, think that the pro-remain BBC is a honest, unbiased media source.

- Does Tarquin with his Art or Philosophy degree really know more than the 'uneducated' people like Eddie Dempsey or the late Bob Crow?

One further question I have for you is why is ok for you to HATE (your words) scousers, based on how they act towards a fairly meaningless (in the grand scheme of life) sport yet some who doesn't like eastern Europeans filling jobs that they would like to do (warehouse/building/etc - not just fruit picking) are the devil incarnate?

 

[da fuq]

Look you need to look at people like Rob Burley and how he has done some real dodgy shit for Question Time to help with Brexit and the Tories

 

[Bremen Tree]

Of course I am. My view is different to yours, but you haven't posted any facts of how many conservative councillors have been in the audience compared to Labour ones. According to the BBC, the audience is made up of a representative audience of that area. When talking about Brexit in London, it's clear that the audience is more anti-Brexit, whereas in the North it's pro-Brexit. When it's in Scotland the audience has a high proportion of SNP people. Whether the same can be said of the panel is another matter.

You really do have a bee in your bonnet about the Beeb. Apparently, you won so why still gripe on about the BBC and it panelists?

 

[Pope John XXIII]

Pope, why are you always going on about the level of education and the referendum? The only reason I can see is that it's your (extremely thinly) veiled way of saying leavers are thick and remainers are intelligent. Does the level of education really make a difference? There could be many reasons for the correlation:

- The better educated have better jobs that aren't so much under threat by the import of labour.

- The better educated have undergone a process of indoctrination. Up until now I haven't mentioned this but I have a degree in Economics. When I look back it was actually a period of indoctrination and I fell for it at the time. Yes we learned the usual microeconomics/macroeconomics, econometrics, banking/money supply (funnily enough though not the Ponzi scheme of the central bankers), GATT, WTO, Bretton Woods, etc, etc but among all that was 'how good' the Maastricht Treaty and the EU (that was yet to be formed as it is now) was going to be.

- The better educated, in general, think that the pro-remain BBC is a honest, unbiased media source.

- Does Tarquin with his Art or Philosophy degree really know more than the 'uneducated' people like Eddie Dempsey or the late Bob Crow?

One further question I have for you is why is ok for you to HATE (your words) scousers, based on how they act towards a fairly meaningless (in the grand scheme of life) sport yet some who doesn't like eastern Europeans filling jobs that they would like to do (warehouse/building/etc - not just fruit picking) are the devil incarnate?

I have posted two links on this. Read them.

I haven't said why the link is there. But it is. That is unarguable. By all means, make the assumption that it is statistically insignificant if you like. In fairness, it is; brexit has happened and there is no going back now.

But education gives you the tools to make better decisions. It gives you the tools to weigh up different options and arguments properly and reach a confident conclusion. It gives you the ability to listen even to arguments that are complex or go against your own preconceptions and potentially build those into your thinking. It allows you to be analytical and reflective. It enables you to act based on logic, evidence and knowledge rather than in instinct.

That is why remainers get so frustrated listening to less educated leavers go on about absolute nonsense; rubbish about migrants they have read in the express, or nonsense about the courts or straight bananas. Educated people have the tools to recognise these things are bullshit and find that our for themselves.

If you are highly educated and reached the conclusion that Brexit was right then I have nothing to say to you. If you used your educational advantages to weigh up the evidence and conclude that Brexit was the best choice then I can respect that as much as I profoundly disagree with it. I hate your decision and might question your motives (as I do LK) but at least you know what you are talking about.

Your "indoctrination" is irrelevant. In your degree you were told stuff about the EU. That's just knowledge. Your education have you to tools to later dismiss that knowledge and question it as biased and unsafe.

I can't recall saying I hate ALL scousers. Maybe you can find the quote where I said that, but if I did, it's not true and I reject/retract that. I do have a very strong antipathy to Liverpool fans, and Liverpool as a region does have more than its share of the social problems that I absolutely hate the most based on my career experiences, IE gangs, refusal to work with the police, glorification of criminality, etc.

But generally speaking I reject the idea of "hating" entire groups. It just doesn't work

 

[Lienking]

Leavers.being less educated was taken from exit polls- in other words, leavers identified themselves.

Post a link then. My understanding is that it has been taken from small polls since. Either way, according to Pope it was a secret ballot and no one knows who voted for what. (that was the point he was trying to make). Of course you also need to interpret what is meant by education. When I went to Uni about 7% of the population, and I haven't (quite) reached retirement age. A smaller percentage went before. Now it's probably five or six times that. Even if you assume education means a formal piece of paper, that's a million miles away from leaping to the conclusion that Leave voters are any less intelligent than Remainers, which is what Remainers tend to imply.

 

[Polly 433]

I’m sure we had this discussion back in October.

 

[Lienking]

You really do have a bee in your bonnet about the Beeb. Apparently, you won so why still gripe on about the BBC and it panelists?

I don't have a bee in my bonnet about the BBC . I don't even have a bee in my bonnet about Brexit. I'm surprised this thread hasn't petered out, but if people post ludicrous statements that a democratically elected Prime Minister is a "dictator" two months after he's elected, I'm quite happy to put my side of the story, despite all the bullying attempts. I'm sure I won't convince any of you any more than you will convince any of us, The Brexit thread in off topic was largely conducted in good spirits and informative. This thread is totally different though.

The BBC did their studio up in blue and yellow on Brexit day. No one has said otherwise or explained why, People say I don't respond to reason, but 99% of what is posted on here is opinion, and the only response I got to my initial post on BBC bias was "bollox", which personally, I don't find very informative.

 

[Lienking]

I’m sure we had this discussion back in October.

You are totally missing the point. Pope says I can't say what percentage of MPs voted to leave because it was a secret ballot, despite the fact he's been posting numerous assumptions from the same secret ballot. That is something he posted today, not back in October. He is even extending the "secret ballot" to claims that the Welsh voted to Remain, also a new posting today !

 

[Calvin Plummer]

You really do have a bee in your bonnet about the Beeb. Apparently, you won so why still gripe on about the BBC and it panelists?

DeFuq and Lienking are representative of the paranoid delusions from either end of the political spectrum with regard to the Beeb.

 

[Pope John XXIII]

You are totally missing the point. Pope says I can't say what percentage of MPs voted to leave because it was a secret ballot, despite the fact he's been posting numerous assumptions from the same secret ballot. That is something he posted today, not back in October. He is even extending the "secret ballot" to claims that the Welsh voted to Remain, also a new posting today !

You don't listen at all do you? Nothing that gets said to you actually gets digested does it?

It's a total waste of time providing evidence or posting links; you don't read them and just pretend the evidence doesn't exist.

Any argument that contradicts your little outraged soundbites you just ignore.

I could explain once again why everything you have just alledged above is bollocks.

But you'll be making the same allegations in the next post because you are a disingenuous liar. And don't bother playing the victim again; it is a label you have well and truly earned.

There you go, another link you won't bother reading.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/how-mp-vote-eu-referendum-9187679
How every MP voted. Based on such hard data as letters and tweets, as well as asking them.

Which is what the polling companies did when looking at the statistics to see... You know what, I'm wasting my time on you

 

[Lienking]

And where is the money coming from?

I didn't realise all our businesses were so profitable that they can afford to suddenly up wages and invest in training without passing that on in higher prices.

Please show me the evidence that this is the case.

And when you say "cheap" labour, what do you mean? After all, the minimum wage is £8.20 whether you are English or Polish. If you work in retail, hospitality or just about any "low skilled" job, this is the money you get regardless of nationality. This will remain what employers wish to pay employees.

What precisely is going to change this?

I take your point about the stereotype of the cheap Polish builder or plumber.

That isn't going to make a hotel suddenly train its own plumber or construction worker though. It would be nice if it did, but it won't.

Part of the problem is that we have an education system that pointlessly holds on to students until they are 18, where about 80% of provision is based on A Levels, which are only useful for getting to university, a generation of parents who are stigmatised against vocational qualifications a government with no interest in financially funding a sudden change in focus (the current mantra is bollocks about "cultural capital, basically giving a middle class education to all) and no incentive for engineering, computing or vocational teachers to leave those lucrative fields for a crap job in teaching. Before you start, this is not the fault nor the desire of schools or teachers.

So where are the British workers doing these jobs going to come from? They will be more expensive (cheap labour is over) and they will charge more. Where is that coming from if it isn't being passed on to the consumer?

Training people doesn't necessarily cost a fortune. Firstly apprentices can be paid as little as £3.90, so you can actually save money if you get more than 50% work out of them, and train them up too. Also I''ve worked in lots of industries over forty years, including working at companies that paid peanuts and got low production , demoralised workers, and more training costs because of staff turnover. Productivity through investment also increases wages. This may or may not happen, but the government can amend our tax system to help (Capital Allowances), and it's interesting that Labour was suggesting that increased productivity would bring about the four day week.

Some companies (I believe Aldi is one) actually sell cheap produce whilst paying staff more than minimum wage. They obviously believe that staff retention and morale is more important than cheap labour.

 

[Pope John XXIII]

Training people doesn't necessarily cost a fortune. Firstly apprentices can be paid as little as £3.90, so you can actually save money if you get more than 50% work out of them, and train them up too. Also I''ve worked in lots of industries over forty years, including working at companies that paid peanuts and got low production , demoralised workers, and more training costs because of staff turnover. Productivity through investment also increases wages. This may or may not happen, but the government can amend our tax system to help (Capital Allowances), and it's interesting that Labour was suggesting that increased productivity would bring about the four day week.

Some companies (I believe Aldi is one) actually sell cheap produce whilst paying staff more than minimum wage. They obviously believe that staff retention and morale is more important than cheap labour.

Well, let's see how the Aldi and Lidl model survives WTO tariffs.

It takes a very brave company to pay their workers more on the basis of it resulting in better productivity. Very few companies do it. The entire hospitality and retail sector live on minimum wage with very few exceptions. When CEOs continue to get huge bonuses based on short term performance, that is likely to continue.

Taking on an apprentice isn't as cheap as you think it is. For a start, you need to actually teach them something. The qualification and day a week at college all cost and aren't cheap. Presumably your business wants it's plumber to qualify, after which you won't be able to pay them £150 a week any more

 

[da fuq]

DeFuq and Lienking are representative of the paranoid delusions from either end of the political spectrum with regard to the Beeb.

Ere he is the wiki wiki wiki wild west copy and paste king

Was waiting to see how long before you piped up

 

[da fuq]

I see my delusions are just that

Now remember its Ctrl c and then Ctrl v

 

[Calvin Plummer]

Ere he is the wiki wiki wiki wild west copy and paste king

Was waiting to see how long before you piped up

All you do is copy and paste links of bizarre conspiracy theory. You're an utter nut nut. When you get asked substantive questions on policy and theory you are incapable of engaging and completely avoid. You did it with your socialist claims and you did it again with New Labour.

You've absolutely nothing whatsoever to offer beyond being the very best friend the likes of Johnson ever had by turning the labour party into a joke.

Nice one.

 

[da fuq]

All you do is copy and paste links of bizarre conspiracy theory. You're an utter nut nut. When you get asked substantive questions on policy and theory you are incapable of engaging and completely avoid. You did it with your socialist claims and you did it again with New Labour.

You've absolutely nothing whatsoever to offer beyond being the very best friend the likes of Johnson ever had by turning the labour party into a joke.

Nice one.

Now listen just because I choose not to engage does not mean anything other than sometimes i cant be arsed

Case in point recently with LIEking

I've given up I gave him examples and explanations and he just totally ignored like he was blind to it so I've now given up

As for when we were talking about neoliberalism you contradicted yourself in the very first couple of sentences about New Labour - did they have Neo Liberal traits that were very much aligned with Thatchers govts or not? It's a simple question

Also you are a wiki copy and paste king as proven in the past and recently with your almost word for word verbatim explanation of socialism

Its obvious from your weekly thread on fan comments ( which are great by the way )

You love a bit of Ctrl c and Ctrl v

Sometimes I just do it because it really does get on your beak

As for being a nut nut that's very nice of you

You have said far worse things in the past and not only to me so I'll take that as you showing signs of maturity and maybe a bit of humility

I would like to think that people would say that someone who is an actual nut nut is someone who for years trys many different methods of engagement to get someone to give up thier personal details like a stalker on the vinegar stroke

But you know that's just my personal experience with you

 

[Polly 433]

Someone famous once said something along the lines of “definition of madness is repeating the same thing and being surprised when getting the same outcome”.

Bit like Forest at home.