Ukraine Situation | Page 6 | Vital Football

Ukraine Situation

You've lost me there. I'm guessing you're insinuating that I, "don't have to live alongside immigrants, or pay for them" ?

I have lost you, yes. I wasn't insinuating that, not everything is about you however. I was saying that your comparison for the guy saying that people should stay where it's unsafe, wasn't the best. I think we are both agreed though that he was wrong to say Americans and Britains should stay put in Ukraine, when he can't possibly know what it would be like to stay there and he isn't affected personally.

Apologies if you said anything interesting or asked a question in the rest of your post. I lost interest during the 2nd paragraph tbh
 
It's OK to say you don't believe the propaganda, for that's what much of it is, from all sides. It's not OK to claim any equivalence between Russia and the West beacause the former is clearly the aggressor and has form.

I don't like Johnson and I think he plays fast and loose with the truth, convention and sometimes the law but he can be kicked out. I'd be fairly scared if Johnson had Putin's unbridled power but Putin is a dictator and worryingly it seems to be going to his head in an alarming manner. He's been in power for over 20 years and Blair went a bit weird in less than half of that, Thatcher too.
 
It's OK to say you don't believe the propaganda, for that's what much of it is, from all sides. It's not OK to claim any equivalence between Russia and the West beacause the former is clearly the aggressor and has form.

I don't like Johnson and I think he plays fast and loose with the truth, convention and sometimes the law but he can be kicked out. I'd be fairly scared if Johnson had Putin's unbridled power but Putin is a dictator and worryingly it seems to be going to his head in an alarming manner. He's been in power for over 20 years and Blair went a bit weird in less than half of that, Thatcher too.

True Russia has form but so does the west. Not sure why i would trust either of them.
 
True Russia has form but so does the west. Not sure why i would trust either of them.

If it transpires that Russia does undertake a full blown attack to take over Ukraine as it’s own territory, when was the last time any Western Country did the same? Yes, we’ve got involved in things we shouldn’t have, but I don’t recall any western country undertaking a full blown invasion on any one to extend their territory since WWII. Russia is in a different league of dangerousness and deception to the West and if we let them get away with it, China will do the same to Taiwan, then what’s next? Russia having a pop at Georgia or Estonia? China deciding they want to take more territory near them?
 
Putin says he will sign decree recognising independence of Donetsk and Lugansk soon. Clear breach of Minsk Protocol.

Fuck Putin.
 
His speech today. Fucking hell, the man is deranged and has so much power. It's absolutely terrifying.

He must be stopped.
 
The only way you can hurt Putin is financially, and by that I mean personally. I have no idea how you’d do it though.
 
The only way you can hurt Putin is financially, and by that I mean personally. I have no idea how you’d do it though.
You cannot hurt Putin personally financially because he has more money than you can shake a stick at.
Literally billions.
You can however put massive sanctions on Russia which will massively affect the general population which may eventually lead to his loss of influence.
If the Oligarchs are affected personally, it could make a difference but that’s very long term.
For now, with Europe so dependent on Russian gas and oil, he has the upper hand at every level.
What the hell was Germany thinking being dependent of Russia for fuel.
Another Merkel bad decision?
 
You cannot hurt Putin personally financially because he has more money than you can shake a stick at.
Literally billions.
You can however put massive sanctions on Russia which will massively affect the general population which may eventually lead to his loss of influence.
If the Oligarchs are affected personally, it could make a difference but that’s very long term.
For now, with Europe so dependent on Russian gas and oil, he has the upper hand at every level.
What the hell was Germany thinking being dependent of Russia for fuel.
Another Merkel bad decision?

I’m fully aware of how much cash Putin has, like I said I don’t know how you’d put in anything that would hurt *him*. But I fear that’s all he would listen to.

He would literally laugh in the face of sanctions, even imposed on those closest to him. He does not care.
 
Yes that sounds like something we would normally do. Nevertheless Europe don’t have to be in hock to Russian gas and have already started to get alternatives in, prices may go higher, who knows but that will be a small price to pay even though it’s a higher price. Russia have amassed a big war chest but still overtime sanctions aimed at Russian people will hurt it. That will probably happen if things get worse but I’m sure the West don’t want to do it.
 
Sanctions impose costs on the target taking a course of action. They cannot stop someone taking a course of action if they are determined. So they can't save Ukraine. Over time, however, they can weaken the target and give their immediate rivals an incentive to do something about them. So they might contribute to a change in Russia eventually.

Saying they are all as bad as each other is wrong and damaging. It is wrong because -murderously hypocritical as liberal, capitalist democracies have been on many occasions- they are open to criticism and change, and their leaders share some of the values which lead us to criticize them. Johnson and all around him, for all their faults, are not in the same league as Putin in terms of moral deficiencies.

Saying they're all a bad as each other is damaging because it falsely absolves us from making judgements in particular contexts. In this context, there can be no doubt about who is most responsible for taking a course of action which could lead to the deaths of thousands of people. From our various standpoints, we need to acknowledge this and think about what is to be done.

Times like this put the question posed by anarchists and others about the state and the states system as a source of our problems into sharp relief. Looking at the logic of move and counter move which which have occurred in this crisis and other crises, leads people to thinking there's got to be a better way of organizing ourselves. Such reflections provide little guide as to what to do right now, however. Declaring the game to be stupid and evil, and walking away from the table, leaves the game and the consequences of winning it to those who keep playing.

Speaking pragmatically, Ukraine is probably lost for now. The costs of trying to "save" it far outweigh the benefits of trying to do so. The Baltic states depend on Mr. Putin being deterred by the "tripwire" of NATO forces. They are not enough to stop him. Their job is to die, if he attacks, so he knows how he is raising the stakes. It is time for the great powers of Europe to start taking the task of defending themselves seriously. Macron's and Sholtz's efforts, hailed as sophisticated and nuanced in contrast to the clumsy Anglos, have yielded nothing, have possibly fed Putin's sense that the West can be divided, and have shown how weak European influence is. This is not a problem so long as the US is still doing the heavy lifting. However, Europe can't rely on the US anymore, and its countries should not want to rely on the US. Step up Germany, France and Britain.
 
Last edited:
Germany, France and Britain (even collectively) have no chance of standing up to Russia. Putin knows it too, this is all about him looking powerful and the west looking weak.

So what next?