EU strategy to destroy the Chequers ‘agreement’...
- Thread starter Trashbat
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GillsBluenose
Vital Football Hero
Shouldn't be too difficult to maintain or even improve. The gig economy and Mike Ashley type practices have been going on for several years and no companies seem to offer any real perks to the lowest workers any more. Some used to provide social clubs and sports facilities back in the day but they were the first things to go when they were having a cost cutting exercise.
The minimum wage and living wage were introduced and set by the UK government anyway and they also increased the tax allowance at the lowest threshold.
I would bet my house that they are not going to improve workers’ rights. Standards / protections will worsen compared to the EU.
As an aside, you shouldn’t dismiss the gig economy. It gives a lot of people the flexibility that they need in their work and a lot of gigs pay very well.
shotshy
Vital Champions League
Confused.com ?
What I do know for a fact is that the minimum wage in the U.K. is a tad short of £9 an hour and in Malta it’s €4.50 an hour. Cost of living is very similar.
We would have to go a long way to drop to their standards of employment.
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Baghdad_Rob
Vital 1st Team Regular
Looking at the FT article, there are a lot of "could do this" and "could do that" as if could = will definitely do so.
One of the more clear things it suggests the government would look to scrap is the 48 Hour week limit law. On the basis that it seems everyone who works anywhere close to 48 hours per week have opted out then if they did scrap this right then it will probably have minimal impact.
The FT also says "The government also wants to remove the requirement of businesses to log the detailed, daily reporting of working hours, saving an estimated £1bn. "
I'm not sure how scraping this would negatively impact the average worker as this seems like the scraping of red tape.
From reading the article, what has happened is that one of the Business Departments have been having consultations with business about things like red tape and this has been translated into "Workers will lose all their rights". Ed Milliband has chimed in with a quote claiming the proposals are a disgrace despite the fact no proposals have been actually been written up and put forward to ministers as yet. We still seem to be in the fact finding stage right now.
Until actual proposals are put forth and we know the actual details of what is being proposed it is hard to actually condemn the government if you don't know what it is they will actually do in the future.
RotherhitheGill
Vital 1st Team Regular
And what do we compete with Malta in producing?
markinkent
Vital Football Hero
It stops unscrupulous employers forcing people to work long hours for extended periods. Its not a single week its a 17 week rolling average.
To support business needs many people are asked to work occasional overtime. The law stopped that becoming the norm, unless people chose to opt out.
Its all about work life balance and protecting people from unscrupulous employers.
I worry for people who work for such employers as the tories remove various laws that were designed to protect workers from unscrupulous employers.
If you work for a good employer then you don't need this protection in law but it wasnt designed for those people.
Sometimes you have to protect people from themselves. I occasionally have to ask people in my team to take a break from working extended hours.
With more people working from home its hard to see people who are at risk of burnout. The report of their 17 week rolling average helps me manage that risk.
GillsBluenose
Vital Football Hero
But the main power is with the employer - can cut hours and employees at a stroke, with no redundancy - to suit the ebbs and flows of their business.
Also, how do you ever apply for a mortgage or even a credit card, or rent a decent property on a long term or assured tenancy, where you have to quote and prove your regular income?
OK for the most casual of casual work, I suppose, but I do not see what "rights" it bestows on the worker.
Baghdad_Rob
Vital 1st Team Regular
I was aware that it was an average over several months but writing "the 48 hours average over several months working hours cap law" seemed a bit long winded when most people would understand what I meant by "the 48 Hour week limit law". I could have written the more snappy "working time directive" but that might have confused a few people.
EU Directive 2003/88/EC wouldn't actually have any practical impact on someone asked to work occasional overtime. For the sort of roles where working an average of over 48 hours might be common, most people are aware of the hours and tend to opt out. From the last time I saw any states on Opting Out, practically everyone does.
Baghdad_Rob
Vital 1st Team Regular
My other half was working self employed as a locum when we applied for a mortgage and if i recall correctly had to show off their last 3 years tax record which indicated how much was earnt over the prior years. On the basis of this the bank were abled to estimate a typical annual salary amount in which to decide how much they were prepared to offer.
And it is worth baring in mind that someone with a permanent job with regular salary can be made unemployed due to redundancy at any point so is no less risky to a certain degree.
And credit card companies are always happy to give practically anyone a card unless their credit history is so shot to pieces with numerous CCJs against their name and a long history of inability to pay off any debt.
GillsBluenose
Vital Football Hero
Fair enough although I think self employed is viewed in a different way, and obviously your own income may have been the main reason for a positive decision, if you were in full employment.
Also, if you have a permanent job, the amount of years that you have been in that full time employment is included in the mortgage application form and is given points in a process called "credit scoring" which contributes to the final decision. That is because you would be entitled to an increasing redundancy/severance pay award- not something the gig economy offers.
In any case, if you are granted a mortgage or a tenancy, you are more likely to default if a gig economy employer suddenly withdraws anticipated working hours, leaving you short of the necessary income to make the payments. That could happen at any time, which would not help you sleep at night.
I just can't see any disadvantages, downsides, or responsibilities that are taken on by the employer. It is purely win-win for them with no need for any loyalty to the employee. You are probably viewed in line with office stationary.
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Baghdad_Rob
Vital 1st Team Regular
My other half earns more after tax than what I earn before the taxman takes his share. The mortgage was very much granted on their earning capacity than mine, at least in the context of what a mortgage provider would be prepared to loan us and where we would otherwise be able to look for a place.
You would not necessarily be entitled to a redundancy payoff and even if you worked at a company long enough to qualify, there is no certainty that your payoff would be enough to pay off the rent / mortgage for more than a month.
The risk of hours being withdraw would obviously need to be considered in the budget with the mortgage being granted on the assumption that for any given month the person does less hours than normal. So if you normally earn an average of £1000 a month then you would get the offer based upon only earning £800 a month. The responsibility would then fall on the worker to put a bit of money aside for the times that there are less hours.
As I say, a full time employed worker could be made unemployed at any time and would get zero income while looking for a job. The person who works in the gig economy would still be working some shifts and getting in some income even if not enough for any given month but then this refers back to the last sentence of the previous paragraph.
If the employer is unreliable in terms of offering regular hours then good staff will look to get hours elsewhere. Bosses can't be complete dicks to their gig workers and some effort at loyalty is needed. It is better to try and be reliable and get people to want to come back and accept any hours than to get people who aren't familiar with your company.
From speaking to a lot of gig economy workers when I was able to go to concerts, it is better to bring back a person to help run the bar that has worked there before and know how the tills work and where the stocks are than someone who might have worked in a pub before but needs to ask colleagues where certain drinks are on the till screen or where spare bottles of drinks are in the cellar.
This is not to say that there isn't issues within the gig economy, but it isn't completely bad and there are plenty of people who make good money navigating the environment.
Your baseline is wrong.
I was comparing future UK standards with current UK standards.
You are comparing UK current standards with the current standards of a small Mediterranean archipelago which has a completely different labour market to the UK.
I can cut my clients at a stroke. I can choose my hours. I can choose where and when I work.
Mortgages for workers in the gig economy are readily available and very competitive.
Maybe you’ve fallen foul of what VG and Pledge have been saying for years. You’ve based your opinions on what the MSM says rather than actually basing your opinions on the reality.
Who knew it! If the MSM misreport about the gig economy maybe they’re covering up Trump’s election win?!?
jogills
Vital Football Hero
You don't need to be pro or anti Brexit to wonder at some views on workers rights. I have little concern for well educated and qualified people with skills that are in demand because they can dictate their own terms. It is glaringly obvious that many, from cabinet ministers down to football MB posters, have never had to rely on legislation to protect their employment and working conditions.
It is interesting that this particular government has moved so quickly to indicate the direction it intends taking. When some of us drew attention to the thinking expressed in Britannia Unchained, we were ridiculed. When people tell you what they think and what they are planning and they get the opportunity to act; they usually do.
It is interesting that this particular government has moved so quickly to indicate the direction it intends taking. When some of us drew attention to the thinking expressed in Britannia Unchained, we were ridiculed. When people tell you what they think and what they are planning and they get the opportunity to act; they usually do.
GillsBluenose
Vital Football Hero
The only move the government have made is to say they they do not intend to lower workers rights and may in fact increase them above those in the EU. You just choose not to believe them which is your right.
In any case, if they pass any legislation that does adversely affect worker's rights, they would not be able to do it on the quiet and with Starmer already leading Johnson in some opinion polls, he could have a real field day at the Tories expense.
GillsBluenose
Vital Football Hero
I can cut my clients at a stroke. I can choose my hours. I can choose where and when I work.
Mortgages for workers in the gig economy are readily available and very competitive.
Sounds contradictory to me. How does an average gig economy worker have "clients"? Sounds more like a self employed position.
Having worked in finance, the only mortgages that were offered to people of no fixed income at that time were only for 70% or less of the value of the property and at a much higher than standard rate.
You make it sound like subprime mortgages in a deregulated market are on the way back so we had better be ready for another world economic crash !
shotshy
Vital Champions League
Exactly
Labour would, rightly so, be all over it.
It’s just yet another anti Brexit jibe.
We’ll have to put up with these until the furore dies down.
James OBrien has just done an entire show on Scottish fishermen not completing export paperwork correctly and blaming Nigel Farage.
It’s Farages fault that the French Customs are being childish and holding up goods unnecessarily.
He had some anti Brexit fishing expert telling us how we had been lied to.
Honestly, give it a rest James.
Baghdad_Rob
Vital 1st Team Regular
The only difference between a gig economy worker and someone who is "self employed" is hourly rate and average length of the contract when you get down to it. Gig workers are self employed.
GillsBluenose
Vital Football Hero
According to this (written 4 year before we left the EU) Mike Ashley uses them, so presumably next time one serves me on a Sports Direct counter, I can ask how their private business is going and when they are leaving to meet their next "Client":
Sports Direct workers aren’t the only ones unprotected in our ‘gig economy’ | Frasers Group | The Guardian
