EU strategy to destroy the Chequers ‘agreement’...

[GillsBluenose]

I can't find where Vambo said every wealthy remainer was a paragon of virtue. Please show me. You weaken your arguments by coming out with this stuff otherwise.

He didn't. He carefully doesn't name them so he does not have to defend their actions, but likes to fling his own sewage.

"Then a small group of wealthy back bench Tories and Mr Farage started blaming the EU for everything from too many immigrants to wanting to take over the world. So, along with the Tory media barons....." blah, blah. blah.....

When he, and presumably you, choose to stick your fingers in your ears and go "la, la, la" is when brexiters and lexiters (like myself) point out that it is not "too many immigrants" but lack of control/no choice that is the issue.

"Wanting to take over the world"- I cant find when anyone has ever said that, including Farage?. So that, going by your post, means that you acknowledge that Vambo weakens his arguments.

What has been pointed out is that an organisation set up purely to facilitate easier trade has become more and more politicised. Any profile of Jacques Delors should educate you in the way that started accelerating. The ever increasing number of rules. laws, dictats and bureaucrats is further evidence of a bloated control obsessed organisation.

 

[mehmets_curlies]

There is leaving as a sovereign state, or as a lot would like, leaving as an EU pet.

Shotshy has corrected me in that we have already left the EU. I think there are a lot of people now that are more worried about keeping their jobs, or finding new ones, than they are about the contents of any deal or questions on sovereignty, whether they voted to leave or not. I think the government and the EU have realised that and will come up with a compromise. If that happens, It will, in all probability, piss some of you Brexit hardliners off, but what can you do about it? The last thing we or the EU need, on top of the effects of COVID, is a "no deal".

 

[Tarian]

There was a BBC correspondent explaining the remaining differences in negotiations yesterday, and when it came to the Level Playing Field issue, he did confirm that such a clause, in some form, is always included in every trade deal.

But he then immediately went on to say that it was the EU that are insisting that this, and only this, trade deal had to include much farther reaching clauses trying to bind the UK in to all their chosen rules/standards on workers rights, environmental standards and state aid.

The UK has pointed out that the whole point of Brexit was to achieve independence and free ourselves from the EU's uniform legislative control.

IMHO that difference of opinion could surely be resolved by 50/50 give and take.

That a Level Playing Field is "always included in every trade deal" would seem to be part of the BBC's pro-EU narrative.
So I thought I'd have a look.

But if this article has any merit then a "L.P.F." can mean whatever the negotiating Parties want it to mean - so maybe that BBC commentator can justify that remark.
https://trade-knowledge.net/commentary/the-elusive-notion-of-a-level-playing-field/

But as many of the issues around L.P.F. are already covered in international Treaties# - including the W.T.O. - there seems no special reason to go to town on adding L.P.F. clauses to a Trade Deal.
# Treaties cover environmental protection
The International Labour Organization (ILO) was founded in 1919

The point is that the EU's Single Market has spawned over 15,000 laws affecting internal domestic (non-trade) laws....
....and I would defy the BBC to find any Trade Deal remotely comparable.

Apparently a FTA may include a clause about State Aid in specific sectors.
But hey, if the UK freely chooses to include a Section with a specific and limited remit, I'm not sure that counts as a "loss of sovereignty".

 

[GillsBluenose]

The last thing we or the EU need, on top of the effects of COVID, is a "no deal".

Agreed. If everything else fails maybe it is possible to get a time limited Free Trade deal to be reviewed in say, a couple of years when both sides will hopefully be stronger and Covid could be more under control.

Even those who do not believe that the EU worked for us have nothing against any other european citizens. Don't forget Farage was married to a German national.

 

[mehmets_curlies]

Agreed. If everything else fails maybe it is possible to get a time limited Free Trade deal to be reviewed in say, a couple of years when both sides will hopefully be stronger and Covid could be more under control.

Even those who do not believe that the EU worked for us have nothing against any other european citizens. Don't forget Farage was married to a German national.

Time limits? Dream on, especially if/when Biden takes over and the hopes of a quick trade deal with the yanks goes up in smoke. Why does farage being married to an EU citizen prove that he has nothing against other European citizens?

 

[markinkent]

Agreed. If everything else fails maybe it is possible to get a time limited Free Trade deal to be reviewed in say, a couple of years.

Wasn't that the transition period that expires soon ?

Both sides have wasted that time.

Common sense would have seen both sides agree to pause Brexit while we prioritised covid but remember brexit is still more about politics than real life .

 

[Trashbat]

Wasn't that the transition period that expires soon ?

Both sides have wasted that time.

Common sense would have seen both sides agree to pause Brexit while we prioritised covid but remember brexit is still more about politics than real life .

I expect that both sides will find a legal mechanism to extend the transition period. No Deal is economically bad for everyone and economic resilience is already tested by COVID. In the absence of any progress, more delay seems the only option.

Politically, Johnson takes a battering at the polls for more delay.

 

[Tarian]

Yet we enjoyed nearly 40 years growth as EU members without that membership being on anyone's radar as something to all get upset about.

40 years ?
Where were you in November 1990 ? (less than 20 years after the UK joined the Common Market.)

Then a small group of wealthy back bench Tories and Mr Farage started blaming the EU for everything from too many immigrants to wanting to take over the world. So, along with the Tory media barons and some brilliant PR they campaigned, won and look to have saddled our next generation or so with £trillions of national debt to be (at best) slightly worse off, with less influence and a disintegrating United Kingdom.
Unless I've read it completely wrong of course.

So no "then" about it. (i.e 40 years later)
Questioning the "benefits" of the EU has been going on for decades - way before 2016 - and not exclusively "wealthy backbench Tories and Mr Farage".

And don't blame the SUN.....
I'm just looking at a few EEC/EU sceptical pamphlets:
Sept 1989 - "The Future of the European Community"
June 1993 - "The Erosion of Democracy"

And one from a "wealthy back bench Tory" ???
8th Feb 1994 - Speech by Norman Tebbit.
(And wasn't he a mere Sergeant in the RAF ?)

But Tebbit was pre-dated by Labour's Tony Benn.
In 1975, (ahead of the first Referendum), Benn wrote:
"But we must recognise that the European Community has now set itself the objectives of developing a common foreign policy, a form of common nationality expressed through a common passport, a directly elected assembly and an economic and monetary union which, taken together, would in effect make the United Kingdom into one province of a Western European state.

Britain's continuing membership of the Community would mean the end of Britain as a completely self-governing nation and the end of our democratically elected parliament as the supreme law-making body in the United Kingdom."

So.........

Unless I've read it completely wrong of course.

 

[Tarian]

No offence but these (independent) guys are the ones I will refer to with regard to official comparitive growth whilst an EU member state...

https://www.inet.ox.ac.uk/news/brexit/

In 1973 the population was 57 million. Now it is 66 million.
That's "growth" of approximately 16%.

Surely then a chunk of that growth (16% of the 102%) in that chart has been driven by immigration ?
(With immigration being a supposed "net benefit", then surely the GDP attributable to immigration would be more than 16% ?)

Then look at the chart for growth in incomes by decile.
Significantly lower growth than the GDP - suggesting that the majority of people have not benefited by growth .... partly because it has been divided amongst an enlarged population.

So feel free to refer to these "independent guys" .... along with appropriate context.

 

[Tarian]

Actually, to be pedantic, we were in growth when Labour left office in 2010 following the financiers' worldwide recession. We went backwards/flatlined uner the Tories' austerity program.

(Don't say Labour's 2008 crash otherwise I'll claim that the arrival of the Covid crisis is the fault of theTories).

Labour did not "cause" the crash.
But Labour's huge over-spending put the UK in a much weaker position to weather the storm than many other economies - e.g. Germany, Scandi countries, Switzerland etc.
(Last Labour Budgets:
2009-10 deficit ~£145 billion out of total spending ~£600 billion ....
2010-11 planned budget set to be a deficit of ~£175 billion)

We never had proper "austerity".
That would have meant eliminating Labour's planned £175 million deficit within one Parliament. That never happened.

 

[Tarian]

Part of the problem is that many see continued growth of GDP as a positive.
Globalisation, multilateralism, multiculturalism?
Are they really all that?
Speak less.
Smile more.
Enjoy what you have.
Be kind.
I did something very benevolent today and have a warm glow.

Agreed.
"Growth" by itself tells us little .... if that growth is spread amongst a growing population.

Per Capita GDP is published - but rarely gets any media attention.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

1 Luxembourg 112,875
2 Singapore 95,603
3 Qatar 91,897
4 Ireland 89,383
5 Switzerland 68,340
6 Norway 64,856
7 United States 63,051
8 Brunei 61,816
— Macau 58,931
9 U.A.E 58,466
— Hong Kong 58,165
10 Denmark 57,781
11 Netherlands 57,101
12 San Marino 56,690
13 Austria 55,406
14 Iceland 54,482
— Taiwan 54,020
15 Germany 53,571
16 Sweden 52,477
17 Australia 50,845
18 Belgium 50,114
19 Finland 49,334
20 Bahrain 49,057
....etc
25 U.K. 44,288

 

[Tarian]

Why does farage being married to an EU citizen prove that he has nothing against other European citizens?

Why do people persist in repeating the myth that Brexit is about being "against" European Citizens ?
It isn't.
(And I'm inclined to think that you know that perfectly well ! )

 

[mehmets_curlies]

Why do people persist in repeating the myth that Brexit is about being "against" European Citizens ?
It isn't.
(And I'm inclined to think that you know that perfectly well ! )

What on earth are you waffling on about now? I didn't say they were and I never have. I was asking a question of gbn in response to a statement he made. BTW, GBN once called those citizens, "invaders".

 

[Tarian]

What on earth are you waffling on about now? I didn't say they were and I never have. I was asking a question of gbn in response to a statement he made. BTW, GBN once called those citizens, "invaders".

So what did you mean by:
"Why does farage being married to an EU citizen prove that he has nothing against other European citizens?"

Why did/does Farage have to "prove" he has "nothing against European citizens" ?

If you accept that it is ridiculous that anyone should think he does have such a problem, then who was the question aimed at ?

If I've misunderstood .... of course I would apologise.

 

[shotshy]

Just when we think that everything has gone to shit in this country, I read that water canons were needed on the streets of both Paris and Berlin and latest Eu news is that an agreement for the seven year budget and the covid recovery plan is still not reached (1.8 TRILLION)
Then on top of that, Bulgaria is blocking North Macedonia’s proposed entry (taking our place) because of a dispute over language ???
All is normal in LaLa land

 

[Tarian]

Agreed.
"Growth" by itself tells us little .... if that growth is spread amongst a growing population.

Per Capita GDP is published - but rarely gets any media attention.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

1 Luxembourg 112,875
2 Singapore 95,603
3 Qatar 91,897
4 Ireland 89,383
5 Switzerland 68,340
6 Norway 64,856
7 United States 63,051
8 Brunei 61,816
— Macau 58,931
9 U.A.E 58,466
— Hong Kong 58,165
10 Denmark 57,781
11 Netherlands 57,101
12 San Marino 56,690
13 Austria 55,406
14 Iceland 54,482
— Taiwan 54,020
15 Germany 53,571
16 Sweden 52,477
17 Australia 50,845
18 Belgium 50,114
19 Finland 49,334
20 Bahrain 49,057
....etc
25 U.K. 44,288

If anyone wonders why Luxembourg and Ireland are so high, then it's probably because a lot of corporate turnover (and profits) are diverted there.
Ditto Switzerland, but for slightly different reasons.

 

[shotshy]

If anyone wonders why Luxembourg and Ireland are so high, then it's probably because a lot of corporate turnover (and profits) are diverted there.
Ditto Switzerland, but for slightly different reasons.

Don’t Apple have their main European office in Dublin and the Irish government give them some sort of tax break.
I know many Uk online gambling companies relocated to Malta in return for tax breaks.
There is actually a cap on the maximum they have to pay, irrespective of turnover.
Level playing field anyone ?

 

[GillsBluenose]

Just when we think that everything has gone to shit in this country, I read that water canons were needed on the streets of both Paris and Berlin and latest Eu news is that an agreement for the seven year budget and the covid recovery plan is still not reached (1.8 TRILLION)
Then on top of that, Bulgaria is blocking North Macedonia’s proposed entry (taking our place) because of a dispute over language ???
All is normal in LaLa land

And this week even the FT had to publish the story of Poland and Hungary vetoing the EU budget plan deal which has all the other member trying to bully them in to submission. You don't cross "the firm".

 

[shotshy]

And this week even the FT had to publish the story of Poland and Hungary vetoing the EU budget plan deal which has all the other member trying to bully them in to submission. You don't cross "the firm".

It’s a negotiating stance GBN.
They we agree the budget if the Eu drop the proposal for taking in illegal immigrants/asylum seekers.

 

[markinkent]

Politically, Johnson takes a battering at the polls for more delay.

Priority number one for Boris is protect Boris. He won't do anything that reflects badly on him.