Brexit rolls on... | Page 18 | Vital Football

Brexit rolls on...

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pebble said:
I take your point, but the author has clearly read an awful lot and appears to know what he's talking about.

It just struck me that I'd never heard of Watergate described as a plot which originally had another goal, but was turned around to unseat Nixon.

One thing Peter Dale Scott's book does is increase my respect for James Ellroy's trilogy which presents the same history in a fictionalised form. Bugging and blackmail are part of the narrative. Epstein therefore seems to fit neatly into the narrative, which is frankly too nasty for me to really want to contemplate.
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I just think that a general rule that works is to never ascribe to conspiracy that which can be reasonably explained by incompetence. A vague form of Hanlon's razor
 
Pope John XXIII said:
I just think that a general rule that works is to never ascribe to conspiracy that which can be reasonably explained by incompetence. A vague form of Hanlon's razor
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So what are you applying that to?

If it's JFK, try reading a few books which challenge the accepted view. I started with 'Rush to judgement' by Mark Lane.

The usual caveat is Occam's Razor, but the point is lost and you could cut yourself shaving.

One assassin is only the simplest explanation if the facts fit. If the evidence points the other way, it's less comfortable (a point Scott makes - conspiracy theorists, in this case, are confronting a less cosy world, not an easier one).
 
To return to the Epstein case - here's a line from his wiki entry

"In 2003, Epstein bid to acquire New York magazine.[61] Other bidders included advertising executive Donny Deutsch, investor Nelson Peltz, media mogul and New York Daily News publisher Mortimer Zuckerman, and film producer Harvey Weinstein. The ultimate buyer was Bruce Wasserstein, a longtime Wall Street investment banker, who paid US$55 million".

Anything strike you about that (bearing in mind all the fake antisemitism stuff referenced earlier in this thread?)
 
pebble said:
So what are you applying that to?

If it's JFK, try reading a few books which challenge the accepted view. I started with 'Rush to judgement' by Mark Lane.

The usual caveat is Occam's Razor, but the point is lost and you could cut yourself shaving.

One assassin is only the simplest explanation if the facts fit. If the evidence points the other way, it's less comfortable (a point Scott makes - conspiracy theorists, in this case, are confronting a less cosy world, not an easier one).
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I wasn't applying it to JFK at all. I personally am highly skeptical about Oswald, but feel the mob connection is the likeliest answer. There is plenty of circumstantial evidence that JFK was helped in the election by the mob; something Bobby probably didn't know nor was made privy to when he was appointed attorney general and went after them.

I was applying it to Nixon.

But thank you for the tip about Ellroy, I will look at that trilogy
 
pebble said:
To return to the Epstein case - here's a line from his wiki entry

"In 2003, Epstein bid to acquire New York magazine.[61] Other bidders included advertising executive Donny Deutsch, investor Nelson Peltz, media mogul and New York Daily News publisher Mortimer Zuckerman, and film producer Harvey Weinstein. The ultimate buyer was Bruce Wasserstein, a longtime Wall Street investment banker, who paid US$55 million".

Anything strike you about that (bearing in mind all the fake antisemitism stuff referenced earlier in this thread?)
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Not sure; why don't you explain to us what strikes you about that and what it's relevance is to Epstein:s crimes?
 
Pope John XXIII said:
I wasn't applying it to JFK at all. I personally am highly skeptical about Oswald, but feel the mob connection is the likeliest answer. There is plenty of circumstantial evidence that JFK was helped in the election by the mob; something Bobby probably didn't know nor was made privy to when he was appointed attorney general and went after them.

I was applying it to Nixon.

But thank you for the tip about Ellroy, I will look at that trilogy
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Not easy reading - or rather, brilliantly written but not easy subject matter.
Titles: American Tabloid
The Cold Six Thousand
Blood's a Rover

I thought he was stretching it too far till I read the JFK book mentioned above. Hoover's dirty response to the BLM of those days is verified by Scott, splashed in our faces by Ellroy.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Not sure; why don't you explain to us what strikes you about that and what it's relevance is to Epstein:s crimes?
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It appears that Epstein operated in a milieu of very rich people who (from a glance at their names) all appear to be Jewish. Weinstein has recently been exposed as a sexual monster, like Epstein.

If this was a Muslim grooming gang, the tabloids would be all over it (I don't mean to imply the other 'rich Jewish' names are involved, just that Weinstein and Epstein have both been exposed as sexual predators without any such reference).

Consider this, too (also from Wiki, so debatable?)

On June 30, 2008, after Epstein pleaded guilty to a state charge (one of two) of procuring for prostitution a girl below age 18,[112] he was sentenced to 18 months in prison. While most convicted sex offenders in Florida are sent to state prison, Epstein was instead housed in a private wing of the Palm Beach County Stockade and, according to the sheriff's office, was after 3 1⁄2 months allowed to leave the jail on "work release" for up to 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. This contravened the sheriff's own policies requiring a maximum remaining sentence of 10 months and making sex offenders ineligible for the privilege. He was allowed to come and go outside of specified release hours.[98]

Epstein's cell door was left unlocked, and he had access to the attorney room where a television was installed for him, before he was moved to the Stockade's previously unstaffed infirmary. He worked at the office of a foundation he had created shortly before reporting to jail; he dissolved it after he had served his time. The Sheriff's Office received $128,000 from Epstein's non-profit to pay for the costs of extra services being provided during his work release.

His office was monitored by "permit deputies" whose overtime was paid by Epstein. They were required to wear suits, and checked in "welcomed guests" at the "front desk". Later the Sheriff's Office said these guest logs were destroyed per the department's "records retention" rules (although inexplicably the Stockade visitor logs were not).[113] He was allowed to use his own driver to drive him between jail and his office and other appointments.[98][113]

Epstein served almost 13 months before being released for a year of probation on house arrest until August 2010. While on probation he was allowed numerous trips on his corporate jet to his residences in Manhattan and the U.S. Virgin Islands. He was allowed long shopping trips and to walk around Palm Beach "for exercise".[98]
 
pebble said:
It appears that Epstein operated in a milieu of very rich people who (from a glance at their names) all appear to be Jewish. Weinstein has recently been exposed as a sexual monster, like Epstein.

If this was a Muslim grooming gang, the tabloids would be all over it (I don't mean to imply the other 'rich Jewish' names are involved, just that Weinstein and Epstein have both been exposed as sexual predators without any such reference).

Consider this, too (also from Wiki, so debatable?)

On June 30, 2008, after Epstein pleaded guilty to a state charge (one of two) of procuring for prostitution a girl below age 18,[112] he was sentenced to 18 months in prison. While most convicted sex offenders in Florida are sent to state prison, Epstein was instead housed in a private wing of the Palm Beach County Stockade and, according to the sheriff's office, was after 3 1⁄2 months allowed to leave the jail on "work release" for up to 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. This contravened the sheriff's own policies requiring a maximum remaining sentence of 10 months and making sex offenders ineligible for the privilege. He was allowed to come and go outside of specified release hours.[98]

Epstein's cell door was left unlocked, and he had access to the attorney room where a television was installed for him, before he was moved to the Stockade's previously unstaffed infirmary. He worked at the office of a foundation he had created shortly before reporting to jail; he dissolved it after he had served his time. The Sheriff's Office received $128,000 from Epstein's non-profit to pay for the costs of extra services being provided during his work release.

His office was monitored by "permit deputies" whose overtime was paid by Epstein. They were required to wear suits, and checked in "welcomed guests" at the "front desk". Later the Sheriff's Office said these guest logs were destroyed per the department's "records retention" rules (although inexplicably the Stockade visitor logs were not).[113] He was allowed to use his own driver to drive him between jail and his office and other appointments.[98][113]

Epstein served almost 13 months before being released for a year of probation on house arrest until August 2010. While on probation he was allowed numerous trips on his corporate jet to his residences in Manhattan and the U.S. Virgin Islands. He was allowed long shopping trips and to walk around Palm Beach "for exercise".[98]
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Have the courage of your convictions Pebble. If you are brave enough to point out that all of these people are Jewish, be brave enough to suggest a causal relationship, even though it is anti Semitic to do so.

Or perhaps a more sensible part of you understands that an extremely wealthy Jewish person may well be highly involved with... Other extremely wealthy jewish people. If you were to look into my social circle, you would find, *shock horror* it consists primarily of 30s-40s white teachers.

You are quite right that Muslim grooming gangs would get more media coverage; sexual offences perpetrated by Muslims get 357% more media attention than when white people (even white Jews) do it.

Crime, especially sexual crimes, are about opportunity, not motive or race. Grooming gangs are also about opportunity. And while estimates (granted, about 10 years old now) state 85%-90% of sexual crimes are done by whites, there is clearly a problem with certain jobs that offer opportunity and access to vulnerable and neglected girls.

Taxi drivers are a prime example of this. Taxi driving in the last two decades has become disproportionately represented by Pakistani men. Their religion has absolutely nothing to do with it, and their mysogeny is cultural, not religious. Few other jobs offer such a wealth of opportunity for abuse of young girls; we would be more accurate to call it a taxi driver problem than a "Muslim" problem.

When the majority of abuse tended to be done in foster homes and children's homes in the 70's, 80's and 90s, we didn't think to add a racial aspect to it; it was clearly about opportunity. Equally, we live in a country where it was not unheard of for white working class men to tout their teen and pre-teen daughters around their friends in pubs to earn some money (whether that be for drugs or drink). The gentrification of pubs has reduced the opportunity for that considerably.

Equally, being extremely wealthy and owning your own private island on which to traffic and abuse teenage girls offers abundant opportunity.

I think we would all be quite frightened to see just what proportion of people would do a crime if they could get away with it without consequence. The taxi driver abusers and Epstein share that sense that they could act with impunity.

As for his treatment is jail, I fail to see why that has anything to do with his Jewish heritage or any other sinister motives; he is extremely rich and the American justice system operates capital punishment; those without capital get the punishment. Epstein was rich, and possibly through sexual blackmail, highly powerful. I am not the least surprised to find him sitting on plush cushions and eating lark's tongues in jail.

I remember having to endure an episode of Kardashian's at the in-laws once, in which one of the sisters (no idea which) got sent to jail for driving offences. She went in and out again within a couple of hours because "they were full". They tried to do that with Paris Hilton as well, and we have seen just last week the "justice" Roger Stone got. What you saw with Epstein was not the least unusual treatment of the rich
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Have the courage of your convictions Pebble. If you are brave enough to point out that all of these people are Jewish, be brave enough to suggest a causal relationship, even though it is anti Semitic to do so.

Or perhaps a more sensible part of you understands that an extremely wealthy Jewish person may well be highly involved with... Other extremely wealthy jewish people. If you were to look into my social circle, you would find, *shock horror* it consists primarily of 30s-40s white teachers.

You are quite right that Muslim grooming gangs would get more media coverage; sexual offences perpetrated by Muslims get 357% more media attention than when white people (even white Jews) do it.

Crime, especially sexual crimes, are about opportunity, not motive or race. Grooming gangs are also about opportunity. And while estimates (granted, about 10 years old now) state 85%-90% of sexual crimes are done by whites, there is clearly a problem with certain jobs that offer opportunity and access to vulnerable and neglected girls.

Taxi drivers are a prime example of this. Taxi driving in the last two decades has become disproportionately represented by Pakistani men. Their religion has absolutely nothing to do with it, and their mysogeny is cultural, not religious. Few other jobs offer such a wealth of opportunity for abuse of young girls; we would be more accurate to call it a taxi driver problem than a "Muslim" problem.

When the majority of abuse tended to be done in foster homes and children's homes in the 70's, 80's and 90s, we didn't think to add a racial aspect to it; it was clearly about opportunity. Equally, we live in a country where it was not unheard of for white working class men to tout their teen and pre-teen daughters around their friends in pubs to earn some money (whether that be for drugs or drink). The gentrification of pubs has reduced the opportunity for that considerably.

Equally, being extremely wealthy and owning your own private island on which to traffic and abuse teenage girls offers abundant opportunity.

I think we would all be quite frightened to see just what proportion of people would do a crime if they could get away with it without consequence. The taxi driver abusers and Epstein share that sense that they could act with impunity.

As for his treatment is jail, I fail to see why that has anything to do with his Jewish heritage or any other sinister motives; he is extremely rich and the American justice system operates capital punishment; those without capital get the punishment. Epstein was rich, and possibly through sexual blackmail, highly powerful. I am not the least surprised to find him sitting on plush cushions and eating lark's tongues in jail.

I remember having to endure an episode of Kardashian's at the in-laws once, in which one of the sisters (no idea which) got sent to jail for driving offences. She went in and out again within a couple of hours because "they were full". They tried to do that with Paris Hilton as well, and we have seen just last week the "justice" Roger Stone got. What you saw with Epstein was not the least unusual treatment of the rich
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It just struck me that the people who cry 'antisemitism' whenever someone makes a comment they don't like tend to be rich, powerful white men protecting their own privilege. Just as those who cry 'Islamophobia' tend to be rich, powerful men, often from an Asian background.

The point Peter Dale Scott makes is that our patriarchal culture is corrupt. He doesn't like people blaming JFK's murder on 'the Mafia' as that identifies an external group - rather, he argues that the FBI and the CIA chose to allow certain powerful criminals to operate with impunity while using them as informants.

Not directly relevant to Brexit, I know, but his book left me feeling that there's far more corruption in high places than I ever dreamt, and that I probably couldn't cope with the truth.

Part of the problem today is that ordinary people sense this corruption - but then fall for right-wing populists who say they're going to 'drain the swamp', or vote for Brexit as a poke in the eye to the ruling class.
 
pebble said:
It just struck me that the people who cry 'antisemitism' whenever someone makes a comment they don't like tend to be rich, powerful white men protecting their own privilege. Just as those who cry 'Islamophobia' tend to be rich, powerful men, often from an Asian background.

The point Peter Dale Scott makes is that our patriarchal culture is corrupt. He doesn't like people blaming JFK's murder on 'the Mafia' as that identifies an external group - rather, he argues that the FBI and the CIA chose to allow certain powerful criminals to operate with impunity while using them as informants.

Not directly relevant to Brexit, I know, but his book left me feeling that there's far more corruption in high places than I ever dreamt, and that I probably couldn't cope with the truth.

Part of the problem today is that ordinary people sense this corruption - but then fall for right-wing populists who say they're going to 'drain the swamp', or vote for Brexit as a poke in the eye to the ruling class.
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That first paragraph is ridiculous

Sorry dude but it is and is not grounded in reality what I will give you is their are people who's voices can be heard by many because of the platform they are given

What I see a lot of is obvious racists who hide behind the 'everything is too PC' bollocks

They have never experienced racism or the level that some people go through and what that actually means and feels like yet somehow they are the wealth of knowledge on it

There are some posters that have these characteristics

Most of the time they don't even know they are doing it and its not part of their everyday lives so it's either bullshit or they just need to get over it

It would be amusing to see how they would deal with it after they swapped places with some of these people

They would shit a cabbage
 
This is nothing to do with Brexit but it's worthy of note to some on here.
I still support Notts Cricket as well as Forest and I've just spent an interesting hour or so

watching Notts openers pasting Derbyshire all over the ground so far reaching 102 for no wicket. It's now lunch.
I joined their supporters club a while back, no charge, but get a fair whack of gossip and now out of the blue all of the home matches live and no charge. I'm not going to stay up all night again but "owt's better than note" and at least I can get an idea of how they're going.

It's odd that Forest insist that I pay to watch them but not the case with the cricket.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Wow, just read this https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...epstein?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Samsung_Internet

Epstein allegedly sexually trafficked the girl to powerful people to “ingratiate himself with them for business, personal, political and financial gain, as well as to obtain potential blackmail information”. They included “numerous prominent American politicians, powerful business executives, foreign presidents, a well-known prime minister, and other world leaders.”

That could be very explosive if/when the name gets out. In Epstein's timeframe there are only a very limited number of men that can possibly be.
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Well it's an absolute known fact the Blair and Campbell have been in his company
 
Slight revision to Rocky 4. Ivan Drago was the hero said Boris, Cummings and Trump!
 
JC21 said:
Well it's an absolute known fact the Blair and Campbell have been in his company
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Oh you can find his little black book if you look hard enough on the internet with all those that travelled to his Island on multiple occasions with the phone numbers and even really sad code names for some of the them

British military on their too
 
Oh well just another Tory involved in rape and Jacob Rees-Mogg and Mark Spencer the Chief whip knew about it over a month ago and said nothing

These are actual ghouls you have allowed to run this country
 
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