Work For Your Dole

[BodyButter]

Wurzel - 1/10/2013 03:08

It is true that Labour have actively pursued and encouraged a benefits culture to cultivate votes in the same way they have abused the immigration issue for the same ends. They are a morally bankrupt organisation.

There is no doubt also that a large percentage of Tories believe that supporting a free market and aiding people to create wealth without limits. Which again can have the same accusation of moral bankruptcy levelled at it.

The big question is "is benefiting from a benefits system to a degree that working becomes unnecessary in a person's self-interest". I would say obviously no, not only because that system has to be paid for by the rest of the population, most of whom are not multi-millionaires, but also because the person taking the benefits is missing out on the many positive effects that working brings such as a sense of purpose, higher self-esteem, increased social circle etc.

But if there just aren't jobs there then any 'reform' is just punishment for being working class.

The problem of the 'disappearance' of low end jobs is common to all of the developed world (including Japan) except Australia where the mines are providing alternative employment.

It's one of the reasons the developed world will never fully recover from the crash of 2008.

 

[Villan Of The North]

BodyButter - 1/10/2013 04:52

Wurzel - 1/10/2013 03:08

It is true that Labour have actively pursued and encouraged a benefits culture to cultivate votes in the same way they have abused the immigration issue for the same ends. They are a morally bankrupt organisation.

There is no doubt also that a large percentage of Tories believe that supporting a free market and aiding people to create wealth without limits. Which again can have the same accusation of moral bankruptcy levelled at it.

The big question is "is benefiting from a benefits system to a degree that working becomes unnecessary in a person's self-interest". I would say obviously no, not only because that system has to be paid for by the rest of the population, most of whom are not multi-millionaires, but also because the person taking the benefits is missing out on the many positive effects that working brings such as a sense of purpose, higher self-esteem, increased social circle etc.

But if there just aren't jobs there then any 'reform' is just punishment for being working class.

The problem of the 'disappearance' of low end jobs is common to all of the developed world (including Japan) except Australia where the mines are providing alternative employment.

It's one of the reasons the developed world will never fully recover from the crash of 2008.

I don't think this is aimed at the working class. Those that want to work will find work.......little money but work. This is aimed at the non-working class. There is plenty of useful work to be done but little money to pay for it, therefore it's not a punishment but a trade off, which will hopefully get those that would rather claim benefits than work to contribute something constructive to society. That said, the system should be overhauled to make it impossible to be better off claiming benefits than working, I believe this would also go some way toward resolving the issue.

 

[Villan Of The North]

Regards so called low-end jobs, they are still there but people won't do them, that's why the Eastern Europeans are everywhere in the west, they need the money and many still take pride in doing a good job no matter what Westerners think of the status of the employment. We have exactly the same problems here in Norway and a rough estimate tells me that, over the last 2 years, around 70% of the people I have employed have been from Eastern Europe. Of the ones that have stuck around and done a good job, the percentage increases.

 

[BodyButter]

Villan Of The North - 1/10/2013 13:11

Regards so called low-end jobs, they are still there but people won't do them, that's why the Eastern Europeans are everywhere in the west, they need the money and many still take pride in doing a good job no matter what Westerners think of the status of the employment. We have exactly the same problems here in Norway and a rough estimate tells me that, over the last 2 years, around 70% of the people I have employed have been from Eastern Europe. Of the ones that have stuck around and done a good job, the percentage increases.

What sort of work is that, Ian?

 

[Guest]

There are plenty of low end jobs = Cleaners, carers, kitchen work, bar work, restaurant work, Retail, driving/deliveries. You could open the paper, check out the job centre and these jobs are all available but low paid, or short hours.

Although no dole work should be for employers - it should be community/charity type work only!

Other options are the leasing of empty businesses - shops, hairdressers, closed down factories etc - rent can be negotiated fairly cheap and if you have a good business mind then now would be a great opportunity to start up. Like I said earlier, China and the East is slowing up due to workers now wanting more pay and health safety issues. Which is causing price hikes for the global consumer - we can compete again globally in industry and engineering = if we had the people available that we had 30 - 40 years ago.

 

[BodyButter]

GT, I don't think the quality of people has changed. It's just that those people are now drawn into finance and IT instead of manufacturing.

 

[Villan Of The North]

BodyButter - 1/10/2013 05:59

Villan Of The North - 1/10/2013 13:11

Regards so called low-end jobs, they are still there but people won't do them, that's why the Eastern Europeans are everywhere in the west, they need the money and many still take pride in doing a good job no matter what Westerners think of the status of the employment. We have exactly the same problems here in Norway and a rough estimate tells me that, over the last 2 years, around 70% of the people I have employed have been from Eastern Europe. Of the ones that have stuck around and done a good job, the percentage increases.

What sort of work is that, Ian?

I'm a manager for a distribution company. We have no equivalent model in the UK but basically it's night work delivering newspapers, leaflets, magazines and small parcels home to people. Mailboxes are somewhat bigger over here and rarely just a slot in the door so it allows for a very different business model to what you would normally expect in the UK.

 

[Villan Of The North]

BodyButter - 1/10/2013 08:43

GT, I don't think the quality of people has changed. It's just that those people are now drawn into finance and IT instead of manufacturing.

I think the point is not about the quality of the people but about the background/experience of the people. Germany has a good car manufacturing sector as does France so they have people with the relevant skills to build up similar industries but, take Birmingham for example, how long ago was the last car produces there? There is no new generation with the relevant skills or training.

 

[Wurzel]

There is plenty of volunteer work out there. Organisations and charities are crying out for help. Councils are under financial pressure, how great for them to have their local people helping in the community, something councils were set up for. It's a win win.

 

[Villan Of The North]

Yeah but you're just a ranting Tory Rob so what would you know. lol

 

[BodyButter]

Villan Of The North - 1/10/2013 17:04

BodyButter - 1/10/2013 05:59

Villan Of The North - 1/10/2013 13:11

Regards so called low-end jobs, they are still there but people won't do them, that's why the Eastern Europeans are everywhere in the west, they need the money and many still take pride in doing a good job no matter what Westerners think of the status of the employment. We have exactly the same problems here in Norway and a rough estimate tells me that, over the last 2 years, around 70% of the people I have employed have been from Eastern Europe. Of the ones that have stuck around and done a good job, the percentage increases.

What sort of work is that, Ian?

I'm a manager for a distribution company. We have no equivalent model in the UK but basically it's night work delivering newspapers, leaflets, magazines and small parcels home to people. Mailboxes are somewhat bigger over here and rarely just a slot in the door so it allows for a very different business model to what you would normally expect in the UK.

Interesting work. I always enjoy working the odd hours. It means that you get to be off when the masses are working and you can enjoy the world at your own pace but I guess I'm a bit odd in that respect.

Are the drivers paid well by Norwegian standards?

 

[BBJ]

I know of a guy who runs a company in Scandinavia and he regularly "employs" people who are on the dole. Once the time comes for the "contract" to end, they are let go. He never takes on anyone as an employee of his company. He will wait for the next person (or persons) sent by the local equivalent of the Job Centre. He says that he cannot afford to pay them the going rate (plus all thelegislative add ons) and still compete in the export market with companies from India and China. According to him, it's a matter of either staying in business or closing down.
I think what he is doing is morally quite dubious but it does highlight the point that there are jobs that will never ever return to the West because our cost base is too high.

 

[Villan Of The North]

BodyButter - 1/10/2013 09:17

Villan Of The North - 1/10/2013 17:04

BodyButter - 1/10/2013 05:59

Villan Of The North - 1/10/2013 13:11

Regards so called low-end jobs, they are still there but people won't do them, that's why the Eastern Europeans are everywhere in the west, they need the money and many still take pride in doing a good job no matter what Westerners think of the status of the employment. We have exactly the same problems here in Norway and a rough estimate tells me that, over the last 2 years, around 70% of the people I have employed have been from Eastern Europe. Of the ones that have stuck around and done a good job, the percentage increases.

What sort of work is that, Ian?

I'm a manager for a distribution company. We have no equivalent model in the UK but basically it's night work delivering newspapers, leaflets, magazines and small parcels home to people. Mailboxes are somewhat bigger over here and rarely just a slot in the door so it allows for a very different business model to what you would normally expect in the UK.

Interesting work. I always enjoy working the odd hours. It means that you get to be off when the masses are working and you can enjoy the world at your own pace but I guess I'm a bit odd in that respect.

Are the drivers paid well by Norwegian standards?

It depends on your definition of well. They get more than they could get working in s shop but not as much as what would be classed as skilled labour. In reality it's only part time work but we have a good number of people, mainly East Europeans, that are efficient enough to be able to fill two positions, they then often earn a full wage, dependant on how big the positions are that they fill.

 

[Villan Of The North]

BBJ - 1/10/2013 09:19

I know of a guy who runs a company in Scandinavia and he regularly "employs" people who are on the dole. Once the time comes for the "contract" to end, they are let go. He never takes on anyone as an employee of his company. He will wait for the next person (or persons) sent by the local equivalent of the Job Centre. He says that he cannot afford to pay them the going rate (plus all thelegislative add ons) and still compete in the export market with companies from India and China. According to him, it's a matter of either staying in business or closing down.
I think what he is doing is morally quite dubious but it does highlight the point that there are jobs that will never ever return to the West because our cost base is too high.

Regulation in Norway prevents that happening. There are, of course, other dubious tactics used but anything that requires state sponsorship is quite closely monitored.

 

[BodyButter]

BBJ - 1/10/2013 17:19

I know of a guy who runs a company in Scandinavia and he regularly "employs" people who are on the dole. Once the time comes for the "contract" to end, they are let go. He never takes on anyone as an employee of his company. He will wait for the next person (or persons) sent by the local equivalent of the Job Centre. He says that he cannot afford to pay them the going rate (plus all thelegislative add ons) and still compete in the export market with companies from India and China. According to him, it's a matter of either staying in business or closing down.
I think what he is doing is morally quite dubious but it does highlight the point that there are jobs that will never ever return to the West because our cost base is too high.

I'd imagine that's common across the developed world. The reality is that businesses can't compete if they pay unskilled workers a living wage. It's the ugly reality of globalisation.

 

[OnMeHeadFred]

It can't be denied that there is something appealing about forcing the unemployed to work for their dole.

The trouble is that for a party like the Conservatives, whose slogans have been all about the freedom of the individual over the past thirty years and their policies, they told us, were about lessening the power of the state over the individual, forced labour does seem to be inconsistent with that philosophy.

Forced labour has always been associated with totalitarian regimes: Hitler, Stalin and Mao all used forced labour.

Proper conservatives even think that FDR using the unemployed to build the Hoover Dam smacked of a statist philosophy, which was an attack on individual freedom.

So although Osborne's gimmick might enjoy some popular appeal with angry Tory voters it runs entirely counter to the beliefs which his party is based on.

The question is whether he is a hypocrite or the party are moving towards a more statist view of the government's role in controlling the UK economy and its people?

Would Tory voters welcome this change?

 

[Villan Of The North]

Is it counter to Tory philosophy? Surely Conservatism is as much about personal responsibility as personal freedom. In fact I will take that one step further and say that personal freedom is the opportunity to take responsibility for one self. Freedom is not about doing what you want it's about doing what you want within the constriction of what is reasonably possible. If a person does nt earn enough to buy cigarettes then they do not have the freedom to smoke unless someone pays for their cigarettes. As things currently stand unemployed people have the ability to buy cigarettes but it is not their money they are using, it's the tax payers. Is it then unreasonable for the tax payers to exercise their freedom to place conditions on this provision of money? Personally I don't think it is.


NB, smoking was one example, it could be applied to hundreds of other things, in the extreme it could be applied to food.

A party that truly wanted total freedom would also have to, by the definition of personal responsibility, remove any form of state subsidy and as such unemployed would either have to fined a source of income, no matter how demeaning, or starve. Not much of a freedom really is it so it's a bit silly to comment on a party's or individual's philosophy and then take that to it's extreme or indeed not allow them flexibility or even the opportunity to change completely.

It's clear you don't like the Conservatives but that does not mean that you should put words in their mouths to justify your hatred, I'm sure they have done enough things to give genuine concern without fictionalising things.

 

[OnMeHeadFred]

Villan Of The North - 1/10/2013 09:57

It's clear you don't like the Conservatives but that does not mean that you should put words in their mouths to justify your hatred, I'm sure they have done enough things to give genuine concern without fictionalising things.

You would be wrong.

It is dishonest spiv-led Conservatism I can't stand and everything its petty vindictive cant stands for.

At that level, it is not just about allowing winners to win, they are obsessed with ensuring that the losers are seen to lose and lose badly.

I am a great admirer of people like Ron Paul and Peter Schiff and I enjoy the writings of people like Murray Rothbard.

I am a huge fan of Peter Hitchens but not his brother, and I think P. J. O'Rourke makes Conservative values sound attractive.

Its people like Bill O'Reilly and Ann Coulter I can't stand.

I appreciate honest and sincere Conservatism based upon the logic of the free market.

The trouble is that as soon as Conservatives become politicised they default to trying to appeal to the petty hatreds of Conservative voters.

I dislike the hypocrisies of Tory voters and the way they repeat their Daily Mail mantras of hate and resentment, without a moment's thought or analysis.

But I can't say I like sentimental Lefties much either.

 

[Wurzel]

Forced labour or an opportunity to gain some life skills, some self esteem, and some valuable experience for those that need it most. All I can say is since I have been volunteering my life has been enhanced, my view of the world has changed, and it has made me take stock of my life, where I am and where I want to go. I would have thought that that is exactly what is needed if I was one of the long term unemployed.

 

[James06]

Isn't the current Tory slogan 'we're in this together?'

This move is long overdue IMO. People need a routine, when you fall out of that routine of getting up and going to work, your life takes a downturn in so many ways. it's not about money or survival, it's about habits, how you spend your time, a feeling of worth etc...