What should replace the Colston statue in Bristol? | Page 22 | Vital Football

What should replace the Colston statue in Bristol?

markinkent said:
Agreed 100%


Been 20 years since my Jury service but one point stuck with me. It was not our job to interpret the law or have any view on the law. It was simply to determine whether the evidence put in front of us by the barristers was beyond reasonable doubt or something like that.
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Spot on. Every offence has a list of "points to prove" to get a conviction. Iff all those points are proven beyond reasonable doubt (as they appear to have been in this case) then the defendant is guilty.
Like I said, I'm not after banging these people up, we have to be reasonable and its not exactly crime of the century but, as you say, its not the jury's job to decide if the crime is "just". A guilty verdict with a minimal, almost token sanction would have been more appropriate.
 
Nobby_66 said:
Spot on. Every offence has a list of "points to prove" to get a conviction. Iff all those points are proven beyond reasonable doubt (as they appear to have been in this case) then the defendant is guilty.
Like I said, I'm not after banging these people up, we have to be reasonable and its not exactly crime of the century but, as you say, its not the jury's job to decide if the crime is "just". A guilty verdict with a minimal, almost token sanction would have been more appropriate.
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It’s not as if this hasn’t happened before. There was a case some years ago when a lorry driver was convicted of careless driving when he mowed down a boy on a bike in Sittingbourne. He didn’t get a custodial sentence and left the court laughing. Some time later the boys father shot the lorry driver in the legs with a shotgun. An open and shut case ? Yes, but the jury found him not guilty.
 
I sat as a juror in a murder case 2 weeks after i left the forces. Lasted nearly 3 months. One one occasion there was a "legal argument" and we were sent home for over a week.

After more than 3 days of debate the other 11 said not guilty but at one point it was 10-2 guilty.

A lot swung on one sentence the judge said in his summing up. That eventually led to people changing their minds but i still think the accused did it.

The great British justice system!
 
Nobby_66 said:
Spot on. Every offence has a list of "points to prove" to get a conviction. Iff all those points are proven beyond reasonable doubt (as they appear to have been in this case) then the defendant is guilty.
Like I said, I'm not after banging these people up, we have to be reasonable and its not exactly crime of the century but, as you say, its not the jury's job to decide if the crime is "just". A guilty verdict with a minimal, almost token sanction would have been more appropriate.
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Maybe the jury were putting Colston on trial for angering the four defendants?
 
MedwayModernist said:
Putting the cart before the horse here mate.

This is why education, critical thinking and being able to realise what is and is not propaganda is so SO bloody important.

Get that right, and then you can trust in the population to make appropriate decisions. What happened yesterday was frankly brilliant for democracy.

Ultimately we have courts to decide trials etc, not politicians, who let's not forget are the ones who make the laws.

Mao's China wasn't a democracy, so doesn't really matter what the population thought, much in the same way that China isn't really a free democracy now.

Hitler was a dictator too, and I seriously doubt courts in Nazi Germany would have been particularly free when he had hit squads taking out political opponents etc.
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'education, critical thinking and being able to realise what is and is not propaganda is so SO bloody important'.
Trouble is - what you are celebrating is a lack of education and critical thinking plus the lack of realisation that this position is purposeful propaganda by those corporates and elites who seek to divide us.

exactly what change can be carried out by this useless vandalism by the cultural identity revolution, its supported and controlled by the powers that be as it covers two purposes a) it divides us b) it just acts as a Steam valve relieving pressure against them.
Sometimes throughout history we do need to rebel violently e.g voting rights, magna carta, etc.

united we stand and move forward together no matter what your identity or gang or brand of fascism.
 
SteveTreacle said:
I'm sure if someone vandalised it on video then admitted that they did it, they'd be prosecuted like a shot.
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If we're talking unsubstantiated opinions I'm sure a huge numbr of those withering about the Colston statue cheered the vandalism in Highgate Cemetery.
 
jogills said:
If we're talking unsubstantiated opinions I'm sure a huge numbr of those withering about the Colston statue cheered the vandalism in Highgate Cemetery.
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Yup, smug left wing fascists and smug right wing fascists complete the circle - dance puppets dance lol.
 
Bit free with the facscist designations recently Jerry and you have also referenced the man with the silly moustache too. In the matter of the Karl Marx memorial the group, who claimed credit, were the Nattional Front. There is at least a discussion to be had over their fascist credentials. No one seemed over fussed about pursuing them over the matter of the damage, destruction of history, or democracy.

It's hard to get excited about claims of threats to democracy over the Colston statue business when we have a premier telling lies in the house and direct to camera, defying conventions of an unwritten constitution, seeking changes in the law to suppress freedom to protest and assemble and treating his office as sales office for favours. Further afield things are of course immeasurably worse but it's all part of a pattern.
 
jogills said:
It's hard to get excited about claims of threats to democracy over the Colston statue business when we have a premier telling lies in the house and direct to camera, defying conventions of an unwritten constitution, seeking changes in the law to suppress freedom to protest and assemble and treating his office as sales office for favours.
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Some top class "waddabout"-ery there!

Boris Johnson doesn't seem at all relevant to a discussion on whether individuals that damaged a statue should be cleared of a charge of damaging a statue.
 
ThreeSixes said:
Some top class "waddabout"-ery there!

Boris Johnson doesn't seem at all relevant to a discussion on whether individuals that damaged a statue should be cleared of a charge of damaging a statue.
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It's the James O'Brien school of politics - doesn't matter what's happened. The news story or discussion of the day could be BLM thugs causing mayhem, Islamic fanatics murdering or causing terrorism or how the Chinese have caused a global pandemic, it'll always come back to a discussion about and the blame will be on Boris and the Tories or if not them Brexit or even Trump.
 
Well... predictable but revealing reactions. We have been served up any amount of whataboutery on this subject together with overhyped predictions and analysis with appeals to memories from the cold war and nazi Germany. But apparently mention of a lying PM, who has commented on the jury verdict in support of DM headlines is offside.
 
jogills said:
Bit free with the facscist designations recently Jerry and you have also referenced the man with the silly moustache too. In the matter of the Karl Marx memorial the group, who claimed credit, were the Nattional Front. There is at least a discussion to be had over their fascist credentials. No one seemed over fussed about pursuing them over the matter of the damage, destruction of history, or democracy.

It's hard to get excited about claims of threats to democracy over the Colston statue business when we have a premier telling lies in the house and direct to camera, defying conventions of an unwritten constitution, seeking changes in the law to suppress freedom to protest and assemble and treating his office as sales office for favours. Further afield things are of course immeasurably worse but it's all part of a pattern.
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Spot on. Hysteria over one monument.
A complete distraction in comparison to the real and serious threats to our constitution and freedoms with things such as the proposals to limit Judicial Review. Obviously beyond the understanding of most of the public and very easy to whip up hysteria over a bit of metal.

Protesters guilty imo but can't get too worked up over it myself. If it were a country wide display of mass destruction then that would be of some concern.
 
jogills said:
If we're talking unsubstantiated opinions I'm sure a huge numbr of those withering about the Colston statue cheered the vandalism in Highgate Cemetery.
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Why would you make that assumption ?

Currently, people are criticising the left for censoring opinions that leftists disapprove of.

Pretty much all of those critics defend the right of leftists to spout their nonsense valid opinions.;)

Criminal damage is criminal damage - end of.
(except see next post)
 
According to a Barrister this morning....
...and the CPS, "Criminal Damage" has four "legs".
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/criminal-damage

1. Was property damaged ?
2. Was it "reckless" ?
3. Did the property belong to another person ?
4. Was there a lawful excuse ?

It seems that 4. has provided the jury with a "reason"
(but one wonders about the Judge's summing up and guidance).

Lawful excuses include:
a) It was believed that consent had been given.
b) It was believed that property or people needed protection (Example: breaking in to rescue someone or something)

Apparently Courts have added an additional excuse:
c) Preventing a crime

And it seems that this last was emphasised by the defence.
Apparently that statue was committing a "hate crime".

I have no idea whether the defence team actually made that argument in court in exactly those terms....
...but supporters of the vandals have been using that excuse all day.

And as some might imagine, the idea that an inanimate object can commit a crime seems absurd.:wagging:
 
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SteveTreacle said:
Do you apply the same charges of hysteria against the vexed mob who toppled the statue? Surely, there are far more important things going on and to worry about in society, our country and the world than a statue of someone you don't like from hundreds of years ago?
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Yep, and do you apply the same defence for a group of self made vigilantes who beat up a known paedophile seen walking near a school? They are, after all, just preventing him from committing another crime.
There are indeed more serious things to be worried about, like the collapse of law and order started by four thugs who "got off" with a crime based on the fictitious perception of another crime.
 
SteveTreacle said:
Do you apply the same charges of hysteria against the vexed mob who toppled the statue? Surely, there are far more important things going on and to worry about in society, our country and the world than a statue of someone you don't like from hundreds of years ago?
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Yes. Far more important things. As Jerry says, to some extent destroying the statue is largely tokenism. I don't agree with their actions and as I said, they appeared to be guilty imo. If this lead to mass statue destruction then obviously it would be of serious concern but there were specific circumstances surrounding this particular statue, which may explain the "hysterical" mob. Sadly they've fed the loony anti woke mob an easy win. Counterproductive.

Destroying statues is akin to the tokenism of clapping the NHS workers, easy but ultimately useless.

For once, I agree with Rees Mogg re the jury.
 
Nobby_66 said:
Yep, and do you apply the same defence for a group of self made vigilantes who beat up a known paedophile seen walking near a school? They are, after all, just preventing him from committing another crime.
There are indeed more serious things to be worried about, like the collapse of law and order started by four thugs who "got off" with a crime based on the fictitious perception of another crime.
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I assume your last paragraph was tongue in check. Collapse of law and order through 4 "thugs" pulling down a statue? Really? How many statues pulled down since, following this collapse?

Btw, I don't agree with the pulling down of the statue but the level of hysteria is well ott. Serious threats to our freedoms and constitution go virtually unnoticed or reported. Meanwhile our PM continues to act irresponsibly but, ah he's good fun, isn't he??
Give me strength ffs.
 
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