Uncharted Waters | Vital Forums

Uncharted Waters

BBJ

Vital Champions League
#1
It looks as though one of our daughters is going to get married - for the second time.
This is somewhere we've never been as a family.
She was married in the mid 90s and pulled the plug in late 2009 on account of his controlling and emotionally abusive behaviour.
They have two sons who have been turning into mini-models of their dad who has been, to put it mildly, a huge disappointment. They're both now in their early teens. They live a long way from us otherwise their backsides might well have got to know my current shoeleather by now.
The new guy is a fair bit older than her. (He's 12 years younger than me.) He too is divorced and has two older children (late teens and early twenties). His relationship with his ex is somewhat less poisonous than our daughter's with "yer man". He's also a very successful businessman (he has a small yacht!).
It'll all be a heady mix - a couple with four kids between them, two of them more than a little mixed-up and the malign presence of my erstwhile (and less loved than he used to be) son-in-law.
Who knows how things will progress. Mrs BBJ is very concerned. My own view is that they are two big grown-up people and must get on with their lives as they now want to. In the longer run, our grandsons might well benefit from having half-decent male role models in their lives (their new stepdad and stepbrother).
 

Wurzel

Alert Team
#2
You are loving parents, and all you can do is be their for your daughter come what may, which I'm sure you will always be. If she is happy and this chap is decent it may be a wonderful strengthening bond for the family.
 

SiggyBrownie

Villa Princess
#3
I think it will be beneficial for your grandsons to have positive male role models in their lives right now as they are at such an impressionable age.

Your daughter is an adult and you are correct, she can and will do what she wants. The only thing that should worry you and Mrs. BBJ is her happiness.

With all that being said, good luck!

EDIT: Be thankful she can open herself up again to love after being in a less than desirable relationship, with her ex who sounds like a big jerk to me. I bet she is looking for a loving, caring relationship like yours and Mrs BBJ's to have for the rest of her life.
 

kefkat

Vital Football Legend
#4
Your right BBJ! Of-course Mrs BBJ will be concerned. That is what Mom's do best. It is hard to say how much their behavior is learnt through their Dad and how much is teen stuff. Teens are horrible years.

If this man is good to her and she has broken the mold and got a decent man then that is a good thing. Hopefully a man permanently around the boys will make a big difference as they will see how a woman should be treated.

This has been the case for my boys. Whilst none of my 3 boys wanted to turn out like the biological 1, having a role model that they have with Mr KK has made it easier for them to see and learn from the proper way too be.

Nothing wrong with you speaking with your Grandsons if needs be about their behavior. My Mom categorically always told my youngsters, her Grandchildren when they were out of order. They need to see the role models of decent males around them even if like you they live at a distance.

My deceased Dad as well as the ex were both emotionally unavailable so my late Mom was both Mom & Dad to me and the 2nd parent in the marriage to the ex. So whilst not all equivalent to your experiences please be assured that speaking with your Grandson's firmly etc. is not inappropriate if needs be
 

The Fear

A Wise Man (once sat next to him)
#5
I think your position is the right one BBJ... they are adults, they must find their own way in life. Being older than her, hopefully he'll dote on her and want to look after her and make her life wonderful.
 

James06

Vital Football Legend
#6
My daughter is only 11 weeks old, and I'm already worrying about this kind of thing.

I guess the only option as a parent is to support what they want and whatever makes them happy. Embrace the all the positives (which do outweigh the negatives quite considerably I think?), overcome or try to block out the potential negatives, and be ready and waiting in the wings just incase it does go belly-up.

I'm not sure the 'succesful businessman with a yacht' is a pro or con? it sounds like he's financially secure, but often it takes a certain type of person to reach that status. I guess you just have to go with it and hope, regardless of wealth or status that he's a good bloke.

I hope it does all go well John for all your family, and that your daughter finds the support and happiness in life, and the soulmate she deserves.
 

OnMeHeadFred

Vital Reserves Team
#8
BBJ - 15/12/2013 22:45

It looks as though one of our daughters is going to get married - for the second time.
This is somewhere we've never been as a family.
She was married in the mid 90s and pulled the plug in late 2009 on account of his controlling and emotionally abusive behaviour.
They have two sons who have been turning into mini-models of their dad who has been, to put it mildly, a huge disappointment. They're both now in their early teens. They live a long way from us otherwise their backsides might well have got to know my current shoeleather by now.
The new guy is a fair bit older than her. (He's 12 years younger than me.) He too is divorced and has two older children (late teens and early twenties). His relationship with his ex is somewhat less poisonous than our daughter's with "yer man". He's also a very successful businessman (he has a small yacht!).
It'll all be a heady mix - a couple with four kids between them, two of them more than a little mixed-up and the malign presence of my erstwhile (and less loved than he used to be) son-in-law.
Who knows how things will progress. Mrs BBJ is very concerned. My own view is that they are two big grown-up people and must get on with their lives as they now want to. In the longer run, our grandsons might well benefit from having half-decent male role models in their lives (their new stepdad and stepbrother).
Let's be brutally honest.

"Emotionally and controlling behaviour" sounds like one of those modern coverall accusations which are used these days.

Couple it with the richer older guy and you can't help but think the worst.

If she met him through work it would confirm those feelings.

Obviously your loyalty will be with your daughter, right or wrong, and you have no choice but to accept what ever she chooses because it is her decision which she must take full responsibility for.

There seems little doubt that your main responsibility is towards your grandchildren who need to be able to see their father.

So I would say support your daughter by all means but don't stand by and give tacit approval if she starts excluding her ex.

The kids need to see their Dad.

Difficult I know but that is my view.



 

kefkat

Vital Football Legend
#9
Emotional and controlling behavior is be brutally honest is called Domestic Abuse: Having survived it with the physical violence too it isn't 1 of those modern coverall accusations you speak of.

I don't know what your views are based on however domestic abuse is happening to 1 in 4 women at any given time. 1 in 10 men also. So you can see I don't leave men out.

Been through it. have friends who have too. friends who didn't think they were in abuse as they weren't being hit as I was.

The guidelines for it made them realize they were.

It is not a modern coverall as you call it. The awareness and support there today about it that didn't used to be.

TBH I find it a bit insulting not for me but towards BBJ Daughter that you are implying 'she maybe' doing a coverall

I don't think anyone is saying that the children shouldn't see the biological Dad.

You are right the first responsibility is towards the children though
 

BBJ

Vital Champions League
#10
Good and supportive comments, guys.
Onmehead, you're absolutely right. The boys need to see their dad. I think he has proved to be a right eejit but I'd never say that to them. In fairness to our daughter, she has not (so far anyway) tried to exclude him from their lives even though he badmouths her to them. Siggy, you got it in one with your description of him!
She met the new guy at church, by the way, not work. He's not hugely older than her - 13 years. (I was a young dad!) We've met him. He's not as personable or good-looking as the first fellow which is a kind of plus. It seems to be "what you see is what you get".
Trekker, I've as much interest in sailing on a yacht as I have in getting a season ticket for St Andrews.
Anyway, time will tell as to whether this development proves to be positive or not.
 

OnMeHeadFred

Vital Reserves Team
#11
kefkat - 16/12/2013 17:10



It is not a modern coverall as you call it.

TBH I find it a bit insulting not for me but towards BBJ Daughter that you are implying 'she maybe' doing a coverall

I don't think anyone is saying that the children shouldn't see the biological Dad.

You are right the first responsibility is towards the children though
The reason I used the word coverall is that if you look up domestic abuse you will find a check list which covers everything from disrespecting someone's opinions to actual physical violence.

I don't agree with this tendency to conflate all behaviour so that arguments about money are presented as serious as sexual abuse and physical violence.

What is also noticeable is that the lists are mostly geared to addressing typical female problems while ignoring typically male problems. So restricting someone's access to money or credit is considered abuse but running up debts is not.

So I don't actually think it is a fair and it is known that men get a far less sympathetic hearing when they complain about psychological and physical abuse than do women.

Having reached that conclusion I thought that it was possible that the accusation of emotional controlling behaviour might be used as an excuse to exclude the father from seeing his children.

Which I think would be bad for the children.

 

BBJ

Vital Champions League
#12
Omhf, it was (and still is, so far as he can exercise it, and he uses the boys as part of his controlling behaviour) not about money. It wasn't physical but it was demeaning. Please take my word for it, this fellow has not treated our daughter well.
But he is (and will remain) a part of the boys' live.
 

OnMeHeadFred

Vital Reserves Team
#13
BBJ - 16/12/2013 21:51

Omhf, it was (and still is, so far as he can exercise it, and he uses the boys as part of his controlling behaviour) not about money. It wasn't physical but it was demeaning. Please take my word for it, this fellow has not treated our daughter well.
But he is (and will remain) a part of the boys' live.
I always saw the danger that by making it a broad discussion about the nomenclature of abuse that any discussion would imply things about your individual case, which I was desperate to avoid.

I also wished to avoid the anodyne.

I definitely never like to take sides when it comes to dysfunctional relationships because from the outsider's point of view it is rarely clear who is the victim when it comes to psychological abuse.

All too often codependence seems to be a factor which makes any attempts at trying to help seem futile.

So bearing in mind the absolute powerlessness I know we have to improve other people's relationships, I thought it was just about deciding what your minimum duty should be.

Which is what I thought you were asking about.



 

kefkat

Vital Football Legend
#14
It is a known fact Fred that abuse towards men is less talked about than women. It wasn't fully recognized until around 2000 or so. Considering Women's Aid wasn't founded until 1974 and it took more than 20 years for agencies & professionals to become more of fay with it it hasn't done bad for it to be recognized at all.

Womens Aid is now called IDAS: It has now bought in both sexes and inter sex relationships. There is much to be done as still on both sides. The list for women also applies to men. It may not say men but that's a bit like for instance The Bible God is called he never she. Not a analogy I wanted to use but the best I could think of in that moment.

There are 3 male shelters in The U.K so it is not a problem that is ignored
 
G

Guest

Guest
#15
I am just glad a proper good Villan golden oldie like yurself BBJ has a kid that sems to be finlly happy and met someone to treat her right, this life is too short and just cos she has kids with this bloke who mistreated her doesn't mean she has to take it no way, the strength of her to stand up to this and make a stance is admirable to me and is inspiring for others to show no matter what the circumstances are you don't have to take crap of nobody that doesn't deserve you in life.

This new fella she has found i hope as im sure he will be is the one for her and makes her happy, as for your grandsons they will get used to the situation i had so many mates in my teens who's parents split it just takes time but mom being happy is all that matters,all the best BBJ for her!
 

BBJ

Vital Champions League
#16
I'm pretty much aware that men are sometimes at the receiving end of marital mistreatment as it adversely affected the family of which I am the oldest child. I'm also conscious that, to use the cliche, there are two sides to every story. I can only work on what I've observed and accept that, at this distance, I don't have the full picture. However, I do know, both from my own experience and from having seen it happen, that kids all too often get the s****y end of the stick when parental relationships go pear-shaped.
 

OnMeHeadFred

Vital Reserves Team
#17
BBJ - 17/12/2013 06:49

I'm pretty much aware that men are sometimes at the receiving end of marital mistreatment as it adversely affected the family of which I am the oldest child. I'm also conscious that, to use the cliche, there are two sides to every story. I can only work on what I've observed and accept that, at this distance, I don't have the full picture. However, I do know, both from my own experience and from having seen it happen, that kids all too often get the s****y end of the stick when parental relationships go pear-shaped.
All too tragically true.
 

kefkat

Vital Football Legend
#18
Seems Fred that however it has come about (I am not asking. It's your business) you have certainly knowledge whether through experience of/and training to be using some of the terminology you do.

For example: The absolute powerlessness over others/co-dependence traits in relationships speaketh of a man with some experience of emotional well being and unhealthy relationships and so on
 

OnMeHeadFred

Vital Reserves Team
#19
kefkat - 17/12/2013 12:53

Seems Fred that however it has come about (I am not asking. It's your business) you have certainly knowledge whether through experience of/and training to be using some of the terminology you do.

For example: The absolute powerlessness over others/co-dependence traits in relationships speaketh of a man with some experience of emotional well being and unhealthy relationships and so on
I have some training in counselling and psychology but I can't say I was very good at the former because I was too opinionated and got frustrated too easily.

I have a big thing about fairness within relationships, which generally makes my hopes and expectations unrealistic. In theory I am very pragmatic about what is realistic to expect but never quite detached enough to apply it consistently.

I definitely believe that the sexes should be equal but I think it should be about equality of responsibility as well as equality of opportunity. I have read more books on feminism than any bloke I know. I am still sympathetic towards feminism but the writings of Warren Farrell turned out to be a shocking revelation for me, which led me to the conclusion that men's predicament has been largely drowned out and excluded from the media by the feminist lobby.

So I think I have a reasonably balanced view when it comes gender politics and relationships.
 

kefkat

Vital Football Legend
#20
Oh it is hard to do work and train in that area: I am a trained in the area of counselling and advisory. It is flipin hard. I have the dubious honor of having experienced very intense therapy also to have an understanding.

It is hard work though. I am opinionated also so through the skills I have learnt I have learnt how to sand them down and think differently.

The perfect ideal :eek: ) you talk of. Oh we are all work in progress on the journey of life. You talk of your reading of Warren Farrell. I think the thing is once women had no rights. Those rights were fought for. Like so much a balance is a very difficult thing to cultivate and keep it steady. As most things extremes usually come into play.

Of-course it is swings and roundabouts as it can swing between one to the other and not quite steady in the middle