Time to move on says Club... | Page 3 | Vital Football

Time to move on says Club...

So one last input from me; I asked one other Spurs fan who happens to be Jewish and he sent this text to me: (I've copied and pasted them in full)


Text 1:

Ok so irrespective of the traditional reason for that chant is actually very dangerous in the context of today's polarised political discourse. once again there is a more than a disturbingly serious increase in antisemitic rhetoric and indeed physical attacks against Jews. The Yiddo chant plays into this increase in anti-Semitism in that it normalises and tends to make anti-Semitism attitudes acceptable especially to those anti-Semites who previously kept it to themselves -but are now much more blatant in expressing their 'point of view'.
Interesting how physical attacks against orthodox Jews in Stamford hill are on a steep increase in the Spurs 'backyard,,' there can be no Nuance here -Chanting Yiddo is encouraging the increase in anti-Semitism. Today's youth especially couldn't care less about 'the reclaiming history' of the chant .they most probably are not even aware of it.

Text 2:
It's a black and white issue now and needs to be stopped dead with publicity to all football fans as to why it is absolutely beyond the pale and prosecutable under law.

As I said, I won't use the term again.

It's great feedback and in the permutations of what I was saying earlier. You just can't leave it out there.

The subtle question becomes around this comment - "stopped dead with publicity to all football fans".

What does that campaign even look like? Who even runs it?
 
It's great feedback and in the permutations of what I was saying earlier. You just can't leave it out there.

The subtle question becomes around this comment - "stopped dead with publicity to all football fans".

What does that campaign even look like? Who even runs it?


It is accomplished. Well done Tottenham.
 
Gary you used "malicious contributors" there, spot on!
I believe/know its the same regards all these "racist tweets" on Social media, how may of them are actually shit stirring nobodies/non-whites, answer we/they do not know, but the blame is purely put on white people.

A while ago 3 young England team "Black lads", got racially abused on Social media for missing 3 pens, it turned out 75% of the tweets came from across the world, think about that, was anything mentioned on Sky, you got it, Nout/nothing/nadda.

I have a number of oppo's of all denominations, who in lay mans terms are "pissed off" with the whole bloody scenario, they go as far as to say " the whole bloody thing is an attempt to turn each of us against each other"
I didn't use the term malicious contributors in the context you describe though. I simply meant that non-Spurs fans could could send in their 'views' in the guise of being Spurs fans. My point was that if you opened up the review/survey whatever to the Spurs 'fanbase', how could you verify that those fans are actually Spurs fans unless they were affiliated to the club in some way. It was clumsily worded on my part.
 
It is accomplished. Well done Tottenham.

There is a beautiful optimism about your comment that I love.

Thinking a comm on a THFC website will start a movement that will stop a word from being said in public and get a definition removed from a dictionary.

I hear they are removing the words naivety and gullible as well.

Wonder how long it will be before my WHU mates stop greeting me with "Shalom" and using the Y word every few mins. I'm thinking years, if not decades, if not never in their lifetime.

I will do my bit though.
 
I spent some time in Isreal and for my part, I'm certain most Israeli's do find it offensive, as I asked, even back then. (I'm not jewish).

So this morning I did ask a fellow (Jewish) Spurs fan and it was he that sent me the board of deputies statement, he hates it, he hates it even more when Spurs fans sing it as he finds the use of it so uncomfortable, he couldn't tell me in the last few years how many times he's literally had it spat in his face as an insult.

He is literally begging that Spurs fans stop, listen and understand how our muse of it isn't relevant anymore and how the term is now being used to him, his family including his young children at school as a term of racist insult.

His youngest son (just 8) had it chanted at him at school in a very nasty, hurtful way, he fought back physically and was almost kicked out of school for doing so, the other kids parents (5 of them) were all pulled into this and used the 'Spurs defence' as a reference for acceptable use - the school pretty much couldn't then do anything.

His son is now mentally scarred by it as he says now more than ever it's used by a certain section of our community as an out and out insult, as they now know they can use it with relative impunity.

This is the pain he and his family has to endure everyday now, because of what we do.

I for one, won't use the term again, I don't want to be part of the excuse for behaviour like this.
Ex I am sorry for that, very sorry, but I only write about what I had found, sorry again.
 
I was always taught to treat other people the way that you would wish to be treated yourself. I have adopted that all of my life and I am now approaching 75. I can understand how upsetting the use of the Y word is for Jewish people. It is a reminder of wretchedness and evil that has happened to their race/followers of their religion over hundreds of years. Similarly I can understand the hurt derogatory names and racially motivated insults will cause ethnic minorities.
We are Spurs supporters and there are many Jewish people that are also Spurs supporters. I am not Jewish but I do have a Christian faith and know of persecution of Christians in many countries across the world with people in fear of their lives. As Spurs supporters there is no need to use the Y word or any of its derivations. I understand how it started off as a ‘clever’ defence against vile references from frankly uneducated ‘supporters’ of other clubs, two in particular. It is no longer necessary for us to react.
If other clubs small minded supporters wish to continue such obnoxious racially motivated behaviour then there is little that we can do. They stoop nearly as low as the right wing fascists that perpetrated many of the crimes against Jewish people. We Spurs supporters are big enough to stand against it by ignoring it. Effectively turning the other cheek if you like, which is a sign of strength rather than weakness.
So I really do hope that we do as has been suggested by THFC. I for one have never embraced the chant and never will. Let us all move on and respect each other. We are all different but we can all treat other people as we would wish to be treated ourselves.
 
I have a few thoughts

1 - most of our chants are shit. The ones that crowd actually get into often involve the y word. The stadium is already an atmosphereless cesspit unless we're winning most of the time, take away the "y****" to a player who wins a crunching tackle and "y** army" chants to get the crowd going and we're in trouble. Not saying this should be cause for keeping the y word, but the club needs to somehow get some new chants going to replace them or we're only left with "oh when the Saints Spurs " coz we don't have the Dele chant any more.

2 - ignoring racism or sweeping it under the carpet doesn't make it go away. If we stop using the y word and rival fans stop making gas chamber noises and Hitler salutes as a result (which is also unlikely), that doesn't mean the ones who did are suddenly magically not racist scum. Much like there is a lot more open racism to black people now than there was before the BLM protests, those people were emboldened and I have black friends on both side of the divide about whether bringing it to the forefront and addressing it head on is better than pretending it isn't there.

3 - Although I have some Jewish lineage (my paternal grandfather) I'm not Jewish and have no real connection to Judaism culturally and definitely not religiously. Like others, I therefore don't think my opinion should matter on whether we should be allowed to use it... I do however think the club need to handle it very carefully. There are lifelong Spurs fans and allies to the Jewish community with "y word" tattoos. There are Jewish fans (I know some personally) who love that it's used as a badge of honor.

If nothing else the communication needs to be done in a way where it's clear it won't just be the Spurs fans getting punished, as many feel like they're the victims of any change like this and will therefore resist it with "they tried to stop us but look what it did" chants again. Seem to remember last time they started arresting Spurs fans who sung it they were letting Chelsea and West Ham fans continue. It needs to be a uniform zero tolerance policy, which would be arguably better coming from the FA, kick racism out of football or the Met than Spurs themselves.
 
I have a few thoughts

1 - most of our chants are shit. The ones that crowd actually get into often involve the y word. The stadium is already an atmosphereless cesspit unless we're winning most of the time, take away the "y****" to a player who wins a crunching tackle and "y** army" chants to get the crowd going and we're in trouble. Not saying this should be cause for keeping the y word, but the club needs to somehow get some new chants going to replace them or we're only left with "oh when the Saints Spurs " coz we don't have the Dele chant any more.

2 - ignoring racism or sweeping it under the carpet doesn't make it go away. If we stop using the y word and rival fans stop making gas chamber noises and Hitler salutes as a result (which is also unlikely), that doesn't mean the ones who did are suddenly magically not racist scum. Much like there is a lot more open racism to black people now than there was before the BLM protests, those people were emboldened and I have black friends on both side of the divide about whether bringing it to the forefront and addressing it head on is better than pretending it isn't there.

3 - Although I have some Jewish lineage (my paternal grandfather) I'm not Jewish and have no real connection to Judaism culturally and definitely not religiously. Like others, I therefore don't think my opinion should matter on whether we should be allowed to use it... I do however think the club need to handle it very carefully. There are lifelong Spurs fans and allies to the Jewish community with "y word" tattoos. There are Jewish fans (I know some personally) who love that it's used as a badge of honor.

If nothing else the communication needs to be done in a way where it's clear it won't just be the Spurs fans getting punished, as many feel like they're the victims of any change like this and will therefore resist it with "they tried to stop us but look what it did" chants again. Seem to remember last time they started arresting Spurs fans who sung it they were letting Chelsea and West Ham fans continue. It needs to be a uniform zero tolerance policy, which would be arguably better coming from the FA, kick racism out of football or the Met than Spurs themselves.
Some interesting observations.

Regarding the last sentence: "It needs to be a uniform zero tolerance policy, which would be arguably better coming from the FA, kick racism out of football or the Met than Spurs themselves."

The Met has tried to make this a test case in court and failed. They brought charges against three Spurs fans in 2014 but the CPS dropped the case before it got to court and said: "the words could not legally be counted as 'threatening, abusive or insulting' in the circumstances. The circumstances relating to the context the words were used in, that is.

I don't think the FA, kick racism out of football or any other body outside of the club has any mandate to intervene. It really is for the club (everyone related to Spurs that is) and the club only, to decide.
 
Anti-Semitic abuse soars to record levels in 2021 - up by a third from the previous year

10 February 2022, 08:21 | Updated: 10 February 2022, 09:06
287105
The report comes just days after Holocaust Memorial Day. Picture: Alamy


By Will Taylor

Anti-Semitism rose to a record high last year, rising by a third from 2020, a charity has found - with a "disturbing" rise occurring in schools.

A damning report laid bare the problem in the UK as the Community Security Trust [CST] logged 2,255 incidents throughout 2021, up 34% from 1,684 the year before.

Incidents included times when the Holocaust was celebrated and abuse involving teachers and pupils.
The CST found rises associated with times when conflict between Israel and Palestine broke out, notably including when passengers in a convoy of cars covered with the Palestinian flag were accused of making threats against Jews in North West London.
"Not a good year last year for British Jews, and I think most Jewish people will be shocked but not at all surprised by what we've found," Mark Gardner, the CST's chief executive, told LBC's Nick Ferrari at Breakfast.

"So it's the first time that we've had over 2,000 cases of anti Jewish race hatred reported by members of the public and police forces to CST.


UK anti-Semitism reaches record high in 2021, charity boss says


"It's a third up on the year before, and it's a quarter more than anything that we've seen in any previous worst year, so it was not good."

He added: "I think there is an impact of the lockdown. Now, we had two things coming together back in May and June which was a lifting of lockdown restrictions, and also a war in the Middle East.
"And basically when those two things came together, we saw by far the worst single month of anti-Semitism that we've ever had reported to CST. So there is very much something going on."
In Greater London, there were 1,254 incidents, and 284 in Greater Manchester, a rise of 86% from 153 in 2020.
The Home Secretary Priti Patel said: "These statistics are shocking and a stark reminder that the racism of anti-Semitism has not been eradicated.

"Our Jewish community has been subject to appalling hatred and it is through the strength and determination of the Community Security Trust that we continue in our work together to stop such terrible attacks.

"In addition to supporting the work of CST, I continue to support the police to ensure they have the resources to tackle these despicable incidents so that perpetrators can then be punished with the full force of the law."
Among the acts of hate found by the CST, 502 included far-right or Nazi themes. A total of 90 involved the Holocaust being celebrated.
As Israel clashed with the Hamas militant group in Gaza in May last year, anti-Semitic incidents spiked.

The convoy, in which passengers were accused of using offensive language and making the threats, was one of 661 incidents seen in May alone, the highest of any month last year.
In schools, which saw a number of widely-reported incidents in 2021, 182 instances of anti-Semitism were reported – the most seen in any year and 54 more than 2020.
Of those, 99 involved pupils or staff at non-faith schools. In the year prior, just 14 of those were recorded.

The CST said it was "unusual unusual for such a high proportion of school-related incidents to take place at non-faith schools and CST supported many schoolchildren and teachers who felt isolated and fearful about returning to their place of education and work".

Mr Gardner told Nick: "That was especially upsetting for our staff to receive so many phone calls from school kids who they thought they were their friends suddenly turned on them, because there's a war going on thousands of miles away.

"Parents too scared to send their kids into school, and also Jewish teachers who are being verbally abused and physically abused by school kids in the classroom. This was a really really disturbing phenomenon all over the country."

University students, academics, student unions or student bodies were either the victim or offender in 128 incidents, up from 44 in 2020.

The CST said 1,844 instances of abuse such as verbal attacks, social media, graffiti or hate mail were made, and there were 10 incidents of mass-mailed anti-Semitic leaflets or emails.

Zoom-bombing, where video calls are hijacked to show users anti-Semitic material, happened 16 times.

Labour's Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper said: "It is truly appalling that incidents of anti-Jewish hate have now reached record levels - and for this to be increasing shows just how far we have to go to remove the stain of antisemitism from our society."
 
While agreeing with the sentiment of removing the Y word from our club vocabulary I have always been concerned about where debates of this kind will lead to. Are we becoming a society that is all too easily offended by the most silly things? How long will it be before it becomes unacceptable to refer to Scottish people as Jocks for example?
 
Ex, I read what you wrote/posted before, I even mentioned the rise in anti-Semitism in another post.

For me and I think pretty dam obvious, that this has been going on/rising since the mass immigration matter, we now have loads more anti Jew's living here, as in Muslims n Arab types, who are quite open about their hatred of the Jewish Community in our midst and in general.

Thus with all these anti Jew's living here now, has given to the rise off attacks on our Jewish brethren.

I truly believe I am correct here in my thinking, and why oh why can't others see it.
 
While agreeing with the sentiment of removing the Y word from our club vocabulary I have always been concerned about where debates of this kind will lead to. Are we becoming a society that is all too easily offended by the most silly things? How long will it be before it becomes unacceptable to refer to Scottish people as Jocks for example?
TQ that has already been defined as racist, but sweaties don't get offended, the taffs the same, oh yes paddy's also, sorry mate you just couldn't make it up, we live in a very sorry country and world now.
 
Ex, I read what you wrote/posted before, I even mentioned the rise in anti-Semitism in another post.

For me and I think pretty dam obvious, that this has been going on/rising since the mass immigration matter, we now have loads more anti Jew's living here, as in Muslims n Arab types, who are quite open about their hatred of the Jewish Community in our midst and in general.

Thus with all these anti Jew's living here now, has given to the rise off attacks on our Jewish brethren.

I truly believe I am correct here in my thinking, and why oh why can't others see it.

The term we use that was once for the purpose of solidarity is now doing exactly the opposite - I have the testimony of two peoples families who are directly badly and seriously affected by it - that's enough for me.
 
I was always taught to treat other people the way that you would wish to be treated yourself. I have adopted that all of my life and I am now approaching 75. I can understand how upsetting the use of the Y word is for Jewish people. It is a reminder of wretchedness and evil that has happened to their race/followers of their religion over hundreds of years. Similarly I can understand the hurt derogatory names and racially motivated insults will cause ethnic minorities.
We are Spurs supporters and there are many Jewish people that are also Spurs supporters. I am not Jewish but I do have a Christian faith and know of persecution of Christians in many countries across the world with people in fear of their lives. As Spurs supporters there is no need to use the Y word or any of its derivations. I understand how it started off as a ‘clever’ defence against vile references from frankly uneducated ‘supporters’ of other clubs, two in particular. It is no longer necessary for us to react.
If other clubs small minded supporters wish to continue such obnoxious racially motivated behaviour then there is little that we can do. They stoop nearly as low as the right wing fascists that perpetrated many of the crimes against Jewish people. We Spurs supporters are big enough to stand against it by ignoring it. Effectively turning the other cheek if you like, which is a sign of strength rather than weakness.
So I really do hope that we do as has been suggested by THFC. I for one have never embraced the chant and never will. Let us all move on and respect each other. We are all different but we can all treat other people as we would wish to be treated ourselves.

Beautifully said 1954. I wholeheartedly agree with every word.

Having supported the Club since 1978, on reflection of my time at my first Spurs game V UTD when Mrs Hod and I travelled from OZ, I deeply regret joining in what I believe was 95% of all the away Spurs fans chanting the Y word. I ignorantly truly believed that it was of no offence to anyone. I bit like calling myself a Jock,(being Scottish). I now wish I was one of the 5% that were aware of the offence caused.

For this, I apologise.
 
Beautifully said 1954. I wholeheartedly agree with every word.

Having supported the Club since 1978, on reflection of my time at my first Spurs game V UTD when Mrs Hod and I travelled from OZ, I deeply regret joining in what I believe was 95% of all the away Spurs fans chanting the Y word. I ignorantly truly believed that it was of no offence to anyone. I bit like calling myself a Jock,(being Scottish). I now wish I was one of the 5% that were aware of the offence caused.

For this, I apologise.

You are to be applauded Hod; it takes real guts to think about something we've all done most of our lives and then realise it's time to change because of the hurt it's now causing.

There is sadly alot of evidence that as the Jewish population of the UK shrinks - and some do argue this is because they are being 'chased out' by the confrontations they now have to endure from the now much much larget Muslim section of our society (I have no direct evidence of this only from anecdotal evidence from Jewish friends and of course the statistical rise in attacks on them).

They are now in my mind a targetted minority, the labour party for one still seems riven with anti-semitism.

So, I will not chant it again, nor reference it, as I now know the hurt and harm it directly does to this minority and I always like to show solidarity with teh little guys, the guys that are picked on and will always fight their corner - no matter what the personal cost may be.

I'm proud to know you here.


:clap::clap::clap:
 
I do read what Hod n Ex have written and am truly sorry, but what about my Jewish Spurs fan oppo's who do not find it hurtful, two even have Y Spurs tattooed on their arms.
 
You are to be applauded Hod; it takes real guts to think about something we've all done most of our lives and then realise it's time to change because of the hurt it's now causing.

There is sadly alot of evidence that as the Jewish population of the UK shrinks - and some do argue this is because they are being 'chased out' by the confrontations they now have to endure from the now much much larget Muslim section of our society (I have no direct evidence of this only from anecdotal evidence from Jewish friends and of course the statistical rise in attacks on them).

They are now in my mind a targetted minority, the labour party for one still seems riven with anti-semitism.

So, I will not chant it again, nor reference it, as I now know the hurt and harm it directly does to this minority and I always like to show solidarity with teh little guys, the guys that are picked on and will always fight their corner - no matter what the personal cost may be.

I'm proud to know you here.


:clap::clap::clap:

You beat me to it Ex. I too think Hod has been really brave and honest to apologise publicly. Guts in spades.
If you both are just the start and this attitude starts to percolate, those who continue will become less and less until it is slowly eliminated. Two small steps, one by each of you. It might seem an overwhelming issue but as the saying goes, ‘great oaks from little acorns grow’.
Thank you both. My admiration in spades.
 
I noticed the supporters were chanting 'Y army' seemingly louder today.

Yep they did, it's their choice, personally, I hung my head in shame that they still won't accept of attempt to accept the harm it does.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.