The VAR / Refereeing Thread | Vital Football

The VAR / Refereeing Thread

Matic

Matic

Alert Team
We have had other VAR and ref threads in recent seasons, but I'm starting this one because I feel we have entered a very inevitable, but dodgy area.

Liverpool have released a statement in regards to VAR not intervening in their disallowed goal.

Liverpool Football Club acknowledges PGMOL’s admission of their failures last night. It is clear that the correct application of the laws of the game did not occur, resulting in sporting integrity being undermined.


We fully accept the pressures that match officials work under but these pressures are supposed to be alleviated, not exacerbated, by the existence and implementation of VAR.

It is therefore unsatisfactory that sufficient time was not afforded to allow the correct decision to be made and that there was no subsequent intervention.

That such failings have already been categorised as “significant human error” is also unacceptable. Any and all outcomes should be established only by the review and with full transparency.

This is vital for the reliability of future decision-making as it applies to all clubs with learnings being used to make improvements to processes in order to ensure this kind of situation cannot occur again.

In the meantime, we will explore the range of options available, given the clear need for escalation and resolution.
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The last paragraph is key. As the stakes have risen financially, I've wondered how long it will take before clubs start exploring "options" and whether those options will be legal, financial, both or other.

What happens from here? Does it desend into never-ending back and forth a between clubs and the PGMOL? It feels like we could enter a particularly dark moment for refereeing, which in many ways is completely self-inflicted.
 
Matic said:
It's bittersweet for me. As much as I love Liverpool getting their comeuppance, it distracts from how good our team has been this season with such strong implications that Liverpool only lost because of VAR and they were somehow inevitably going win if that disallowed goal had counted.
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VAR clearly isn't working. How many times have we been robbed by poor decisions? I've lost count but we haven't thrown a hissy fit over it. I'm pretty certain no other club has either until now. It had to be them didn't it. The victims.
 
Well done Liverpool for making that statement.

As I've said many times, PGMOL need shaking to the core. I'm still hopeful that Howard Webb is the right man to lead that organisation through the change.

Every club is suffering because of PGMOL's incompetence. This shouldn't be about keeping score of how many bad VAR decisions each club has had for and against. It's about an organisation not providing the quality of service that they are paid well to do. It's about PGMOL killing our game and needing their own arses kicked by the people who pay their wages.
 
muttley said:
Well done Liverpool for making that statement.

As I've said many times, PGMOL need shaking to the core. I'm still hopeful that Howard Webb is the right man to lead that organisation through the change.

Every club is suffering because of PGMOL's incompetence. This shouldn't be about keeping score of how many bad VAR decisions each club has had for and against. It's about an organisation not providing the quality of service that they are paid well to do. It's about PGMOL killing our game and needing their own arses kicked by the people who pay their wages.
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I absolutely agree, but it should never have reached this point. We are in potentially dangerous territory where clubs start legally challenging everything and I don't see how that helps. Barns jokingly said about Liverpool demanding a replay, which although is extremely unlikely in itself, do the PL get forced into changing the points from the result? Do both teams get 3pts. Do each team get 1pt?

I could be totally wrong, but I fear that this issue could snowball at such a rate that ridiculous things start happening rather than the desired changes. If VAR gets stopped, it never comes back - I guarantee it. Once that technology is branded as the issue, that is it.

Webb may be the right person going forward, but let's not ignore that so far things have been worse since he has been at the helm. He has to turn this around instantly.
 
Matic said:
I absolutely agree, but it should never have reached this point. We are in potentially dangerous territory where clubs start legally challenging everything and I don't see how that helps. Barns jokingly said about Liverpool demanding a replay, which although is extremely unlikely in itself, do the PL get forced into changing the points from the result? Do both teams get 3pts. Do each team get 1pt?

I could be totally wrong, but I fear that this issue could snowball at such a rate that ridiculous things start happening rather than the desired changes. If VAR gets stopped, it never comes back - I guarantee it. Once that technology is branded as the issue, that is it.

Webb may be the right person going forward, but let's not ignore that so far things have been worse since he has been at the helm. He has to turn this around instantly.
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I don't think they can possibly change the points allocation, even allowing for the error there is no way of knowing how the match might have played out.
 
TQ2Spurs said:
I don't think they can possibly change the points allocation, even allowing for the error there is no way of knowing how the match might have played out.
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You and I know that, but it is a worst case scenario of trying to avoid legal cases of the costs relating to potential losses. We are talking about businesses that are so large, where the stakes are so huge, that I can see things getting out of hand very easily.

The PGMOL need to improve very, very quickly and the FA and PL need to be very careful in how they demand changed whilst giving them a certain level of protection so trust isn't completely eroded.
 
Matic said:
I absolutely agree, but it should never have reached this point. We are in potentially dangerous territory where clubs start legally challenging everything and I don't see how that helps. Barns jokingly said about Liverpool demanding a replay, which although is extremely unlikely in itself, do the PL get forced into changing the points from the result? Do both teams get 3pts. Do each team get 1pt?

I could be totally wrong, but I fear that this issue could snowball at such a rate that ridiculous things start happening rather than the desired changes. If VAR gets stopped, it never comes back - I guarantee it. Once that technology is branded as the issue, that is it.

Webb may be the right person going forward, but let's not ignore that so far things have been worse since he has been at the helm. He has to turn this around instantly.
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Honestly the very notion that we're going to eradicate human error is preposterous. At every turn that we've tried to improve the game we've only made it worse. If we continue to meddle it'll just spiral even further out of control.
 
steveperryman said:
Honestly the very notion that we're going to eradicate human error is preposterous. At every turn that we've tried to improve the game we've only made it worse. If we continue to meddle it'll just spiral even further out of control.
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Its a matter of determining where to use the technology, how to take advantage of its best performing attributes, and mitigate its weaknesses.

Using VAR in the situations where its best made for success, and allowing for the humans to decide the rest seems most reasonable.

Goal Line Tech seems to be pretty solid. <- example

How thats implemented is still the presiding issue. Little argument the current implementation leaves alot to be desired.

.
 
What struck me on Saturday was how quickly the assistant referee flagged for offside.

Normally these days they allow play to continue and if the play results in a goal they leave it to the VAR to adjudicate.

In that context I can just about understand why the VAR missed the offside flag and announced 'check complete' to confirm the goal should stand.

What seems inexplicable is that having seen the error unfolding the VAR allowed it to continue without further intervention.
 
Matic said:
It's bittersweet for me. As much as I love Liverpool getting their comeuppance, it distracts from how good our team has been this season with such strong implications that Liverpool only lost because of VAR and they were somehow inevitably going win if that disallowed goal had counted.
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Exactly this, it's frustrating to think that the pressure will be applied by thousands of people who didn't even watch the game.
 
For me, 3 things needs to happen here

1) PGMOL needs moving away from any PL control and put squarely back with the FA to manage. My sense is that the FA are as frustrated as we are with the state of refereeing, knowing that PGMOL is funded via the PL by the broadcasting companies. PGMOL should not have multiple bosses. The function of refereeing and the budget should go straight into the FA. That way, they no longer become just the middle man between the PL/EFL and FIFA/IFAB on laws and officiating. They are actually accountable for the standard of referees.

2) We should not have referees sitting in Stockley Park. They've proven over many years now that they don't have the right talents to do the job. After all they trained to be on pitch referees, not football analysts sitting in an office. They also haven't played the game and often miss the context of what is actually happening in the real world. PGMOL needs to setup a dedicated VAR function where they hire people with football DNA who are also students of the laws of the game.

3) Don't just use VAR to eliminate "clear and obvious" errors in certain controlled situations like offside. Use it more broadly to uphold the laws of the game whilst helping to massively reduce the inevitable human error. VAR should be on hand to tell the ref when something needs reviewing. It should also be used to guide refs on things like yellows card offences.
 
I don't think that we need to join in with Liverpool's hysterics about this. VAR was inevitable given that the technology was being given to pundits to pontificate about. There are pros and cons but it is here to stay. What would you rather have, instant decisions to keep the game flowing but with inevitable mistakes or long deliberations which kill the emotion? Mistakes balance out, with VAR I think they are less than before but perfect is the enemy of good as someone wiser than me once said.
 
Its a simple solution - remove the bias, peer pressure and all other variables affecting the VAR refs:

Set up 3 VAR referees who have no contact with each other.
VAR referees do not watch the match.
VAR referees all receive an incident to review.
VAR referees don't know the original decision.
VAR referees have a time limit of 30 seconds to make a decision.
If no decision is made within 30 seconds - Original ruling stands.
If 2 VAR referees agree - Match referee gets sent to the monitor.
If 3 VAR referees agree - Match referee gets sent to the monitor with a VAR conclusion.

Done.
 
OcDorMin said:
Its a simple solution - remove the bias, peer pressure and all other variables affecting the VAR refs:

Set up 3 VAR referees who have no contact with each other.
VAR referees do not watch the match.
VAR referees all receive an incident to review.
VAR referees don't know the original decision.
VAR referees have a time limit of 30 seconds to make a decision.
If no decision is made within 30 seconds - Original ruling stands.
If 2 VAR referees agree - Match referee gets sent to the monitor.
If 3 VAR referees agree - Match referee gets sent to the monitor with a VAR conclusion.

Done.
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😂 Where is the "simple" in this?
 
Greavswasthegreatest said:
All they need to do is to have a mission statement which is

REASONABLE DOUBT ....DONT GIVE THE DECISION!
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Not for me. "Reasonable doubt" is as open to corruption as "clear and obvious".

We just need refs and video refs actually learning and using the laws of the game. They think it is OK not to. They just make it up.
 
Well that is better than what we have currently which in 'unreasonable doubt' and what we see now is 'scapegoatism' ....make a boobooo get the sack or moved on!... so with regards to Liverpud disallowed goal.....it should have been given, Romero's hand ball penalty should not have been given ...as respectively, I doubt he was offside and I doubt romero deliberately tried to block the shot! and the Liverpud first Red was iffy cos the guy went for the ball and the ball helped move his foot higher and onto Biss so it was not as deliberate act and should have been a yellow....in my reasonable doubt!
 
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