Sam Morsy

[king_dezeeuw06]

KDZ, to my reading, you've just agreed with Capt Kernow.

All the points you raise describe seeing future potential and destiny. No-one disagrees with that. However, he has to fulfill that destiny by delivering at the highest standard..........which by the way, I have no doubt he will do.

Greatest player ever? ........ nah, not yet.
Go on to be the greatest?........ very possibly, even probably.

You can only play what you are put against, because you are not playing at the top level doesn't mean you aren't the best or couldn't be at that standard now if given the chance. But in those instances where all things aren't equal you take into account the different factors and make a judgement call. To me James is the most taleneted we've ever seen to pull on a Latics shirt with an exceptional attitude - i believe he is good enough to play any level right now and would walk on current performances alone into any previous Latics team during the Prem years without any doubt - the kid is on another planet from anything we've ever seen.

 

[moonay]

You can only play what you are put against, because you are not playing at the top level doesn't mean you aren't the best or couldn't be at that standard now if given the chance.......... .

In the mid 80s, we had Tony (Zico) Kelly. When he could be arsed, he was head and shoulders above everyone else. By your logic, he's up there with the best we've ever had.

The same could be said for players at Accrington....... or Rochdale........ or Southport........ or even Chorley.

Leave it out KDZ. He will/might be....... but isn't yet.

 

[hindleymonwafc]

On the subject of Chorley...come on , don't balls it up again. Might even go.

 

[Made in Wigan]

In regards James - at times in midfield it was like watching a man in a kids game, when the reality was he was a kid playing in a mans game. As king says when you see a player sometimes you just know they'll be that good. Exceptional player and with his attitude there is no doubt he'll fulfill his potential. It was privilege to watch the lad.

In regards Morsy you need that type of player in the middle of the field and is an important integral player for us. I don't think the evans pairing is right and a new player for that role is crucial in the summer.

 

[loudmouthblue]

In regards James - at times in midfield it was like watching a man in a kids game, when the reality was he was a kid playing in a mans game. As king says when you see a player sometimes you just know they'll be that good. Exceptional player and with his attitude there is no doubt he'll fulfill his potential. It was privilege to watch the lad.

My first view of James was at the game at Rangers and I thought during that game this surely cannot be a kid on loan, nothing since has changed that opinion, it was only added to when I saw him in midfield and how strong and aware he was, it took watching him on TV at the away game at Derby when he owned the midfield and made their players look ordinary to realise just how good he was.

I compare him with Baines and the development in the side at a young age, again from day one you could see Baines was special and so it proved, but James for me at similar stages of their respective careers is head and shoulder above Baines and that is one hell of an accolade.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

In the mid 80s, we had Tony (Zico) Kelly. When he could be arsed, he was head and shoulders above everyone else. By your logic, he's up there with the best we've ever had.

The same could be said for players at Accrington....... or Rochdale........ or Southport........ or even Chorley.

Leave it out KDZ. He will/might be....... but isn't yet.

That's a misreptresentation of what i said, I never saw Kelly play to judge him as i'd have been a toddler at the time but the fact you clearly think that he was not better than what we had but nothing compared to what we have had since shows it's a poor analogy.

I thought Andy Liddell was great at the time but i never thought he was a Prem player, but felt you could've picked up DeZeeuw and thrown him into the Prem and he'd have taken like a duck to water.

Dan Burn was player at the year at this level and MOTM against City but i never thought drop him into the Prem he'll fit in, while i thought picked up Magurire at the time and thrown him in and he'd adapt well.

James to me is like DeZeeuw and Maguire but even better.

There is a difference between being good at that level and being so good it's obvious you can step up and that is James. We've seen the quality of player we've had and quality of opposition over the years at every level enough to be able to roughly judge ability without having to have everyone having to play in the same team at the same time at the same level for direct comparison. Maybe some people feel they can't make that distinction but i think it's very obvious James is a cut above everthing that we've had before - the way he moves on and off the ball, his work rate, his strength, speed, aerial ability, passing ability, touch, dribbling ability, the way he takes responsibility - you can see all of his attributes and they are collectively the best we've ever seen.

With James i think he is head and shoulders better than everything we've ever had ability wise as a 18 year old. If people want to disagree that's up to them but i just think it's really obvious the lad is that good.

 

[moonay]

Hell, you're stubborn KDZ (& yes, I know, so am i?).

I misrepresented nothing...... I just showed how its illogical to claim a player (however good) playing in the second level can possibly be (now, not in the future) "the best we've ever seen".

I note you finished with "as a 18 yo"...... now with that caveat, I doubt many (if any) would disagree.

 

[Will_Shahane]

Hell, you're stubborn KDZ (& yes, I know, so am i?).

I misrepresented nothing...... I just showed how its illogical to claim a player (however good) playing in the second level can possibly be (now, not in the future) "the best we've ever seen".

I note you finished with "as a 18 yo"...... now with that caveat, I doubt many (if any) would disagree.

Tbf in the 'Best Players' thread a few months ago, several quoted Nathan Ellington as being one of the best we've ever had. He never played for us in the Premier League. I never saw him play, so not agreeing/disagreeing with this, but just making the point.

 

[Captain Kernow]

KDZ, just so that I can be clear in what I say, I fully believe reece has the talent, focus, ability, desire et al to be the greatest player that ever represented our club. A bit like Preston fans can tell their kids they saw a young David Beckham back in the day. However, at this moment in time I don't think you can say he's the greatest wigan player of all time, especially over one season. That would be a disservice to other players who have won us league titles, trophies or just plain promotions over their years who were also head and shoulders above their counterparts.
I work with around 400people who all support different teams ranging from Plymouth to Gateshead to Man United and they will tell you I have raved about him all season. My argument in this thread was part of a wider analogy of in this day and age, a special player or performance is seen as the greatest ever, and not just a spectacular event in this moment (not meaning to sound like Jurgen klopp). James talent is undeniable, and I accept your point about only being able to play what he's up against, but he now needs to push on and do it week in week out in the PL. And seeing as this won't be with us, for me personally, he will never be wigans greatest player. However he may well go on to be the greatest player who ever played for us. If that makes sense?

 

[Made in Wigan]

Disingenuous I think to judge (apologies if that's not the case) his ability because we're in the championship. It's a very decent league. The lad however stood out like a sore thumb because he was the stand out performer on the field nigh on every game. He looked out of place because his ability was just too good for this level. He's only 19 and it's frightening to think how good he will become. Thinking back to baines he was very good at this level and you knew he'd have an excellent career. James however is a cut above that and the league is much better too. I've said before it's subjective but the lads standard over 45 league games was exceptional. Bar city and Liverpool I honestly think he could rock up at any club now in the top flight and be straight into the centre of that teams midfield, which is amazing as he came as a right back. Incredible talent and apparently very respectful, humble and hard working. Hopefully he set an example for some of our own youngsters about how to conduct themselves on and off the pitch.

 

[moonay]

Your point MiW re the standard of this league is interesting, especially given the opinions oft expressed (not necessarily yours) throughout the season claiming the opposite.

 

[Mighty Bongsmon]

Captain Kernow is spot on - I think its ridiculous to say that at this moment in time he is the best player to have played in a Latics shirt
He's good. Very good & I've no doubt that he will go on to have a long & very successful career but right now he's a 19 year old, still with things to learn, who we haven't seen playing against the very best that England's leagues have to offer unlike others who played for us in the top flight
He can't possibly be classed as the best ever, as Kernow says, right now & not for how good he can become

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

Hell, you're stubborn KDZ (& yes, I know, so am i?).

I misrepresented nothing...... I just showed how its illogical to claim a player (however good) playing in the second level can possibly be (now, not in the future) "the best we've ever seen".

I note you finished with "as a 18 yo"...... now with that caveat, I doubt many (if any) would disagree.

You picked an example of a player you don't think was top class and compared it to a player i think is. You are saying just because someone is good at a lower level doesn't mean he is Prem quality - agreed, while i am saying despite him being at a lower level I have still seen enough to make me believe he is Prem quality. The level of opposition against doesn't define a level of ability.

What i said at the end was not a caveat, it was a clarification that i rate him that highly now, i'm not saying he will go on to be that good i think he's already at that level.

I feel i've watched enough football to be able to judge a players level of ability over a season - i remember what all the players we've had in the past were like at higher and lower levels and the quality of opposition we've faced. To me this lad is exceptional in a class of his own. I just think it hits you in the face how good this lad is, I am quite suprised others don't see it - his quality sticks out like beacon to me - I've never seen anyone so good in a Latics shirt.

It's a case of judgement - I remember Zog, Valencia, Roberts, DeZeeuw, Heskey, etc all did very well for us in my opinion i think this lad is naturally a better player than all of them.

 

[Will_Shahane]

Your point MiW re the standard of this league is interesting, especially given the opinions oft expressed (not necessarily yours) throughout the season claiming the opposite.

I do think the step-up to the Premier League is quite significant. It's worth bearing in mind that two of the three teams to go down from the PL this season, had been promoted from the Championship the season before (despite Fulham spending 100m in the summer). Then again, none of the newly promoted sides were relegated in 2017-18.

I can see what Moonay means, King. Last year, Ryan Sessegnon was being hyped as a wonder kid, just like James is now. He even won 'Player of the Year'. Yet he's had a fairly average 2018-19 season (albeit in a poor side). You never really know completely how one will fare in the Premier League, until you actually see them there, is the point that Moonay's trying to make.

At the same time, Moonay, we've seen James perform well against the likes of Norwich, who are (arguably) better than the bottom 6 teams in the Prem (I would personally say that, with the exception of Southampton, perhaps).

So yeah, I'm disgracefully sitting on the fence for this particular debate, but those are just a few points that could be made on either side.

 

[moonay]

KDZ, I used your own logic that a player who is head and shoulders above his peers at whatever level might mean that you could play - and excel - at the very top level.

Everybody else sees how good he is...... and might be. No-one is denying he's an exceptional talent. To mark him out as "the best" right now though seems premature...... a little like the ejaculations from many with that view.
?

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

KDZ, just so that I can be clear in what I say, I fully believe reece has the talent, focus, ability, desire et al to be the greatest player that ever represented our club. A bit like Preston fans can tell their kids they saw a young David Beckham back in the day. However, at this moment in time I don't think you can say he's the greatest wigan player of all time, especially over one season. That would be a disservice to other players who have won us league titles, trophies or just plain promotions over their years who were also head and shoulders above their counterparts.
I work with around 400people who all support different teams ranging from Plymouth to Gateshead to Man United and they will tell you I have raved about him all season. My argument in this thread was part of a wider analogy of in this day and age, a special player or performance is seen as the greatest ever, and not just a spectacular event in this moment (not meaning to sound like Jurgen klopp). James talent is undeniable, and I accept your point about only being able to play what he's up against, but he now needs to push on and do it week in week out in the PL. And seeing as this won't be with us, for me personally, he will never be wigans greatest player. However he may well go on to be the greatest player who ever played for us. If that makes sense?

That's a perfectly legitimate position and makes complete sense. I understand where you are coming from but for me when it comes to greatest it depends on how you define it. You can be a great in the sense not the most talented not playing at the highest level but had a huge impact eg. someone like Liddell or you can be someone supremely talented who did well at the higher level and played a big part in our big successes like say McArthur, or you can class it as someone who was just supremely gifted like say Valencia.

In the sense I'm talking about it was most natural talented i've ever seen in a Latics shirt and personally i think it's James. Others can disagree and i understand why they do but persobally i look at everyone we've had and this lad just stands out as something we've never seen before.

I remember the first time we went up to the Prem and you saw loads of good players but they were mere mortals and then you certain players like Berbatov, Henry, Ronaldo and very few others and there was something else about them when you watched them - it wasn't their reputation but you could tell they were operating on a different wave length to virtually everyone else in terms of quality - you've i feel like James has that same aura around him.

 

[king_dezeeuw06]

I do think the step-up to the Premier League is quite significant. It's worth bearing in mind that two of the three teams to go down from the PL this season, had been promoted from the Championship the season before (despite Fulham spending 100m in the summer).

I can see what Moonay means, King. Last year, Ryan Sessegnon was being hyped as a wonder kid, just like James is now. He even won 'Player of the Year'. Yet he's had a fairly average 2018-19 season.

But the difference is i wouldn't have said that about Sessegnon and I haven't said it about anyone else - just James as I think he's a complete one off. I don't think i'll say it again about anyone else.

It's absolutely not premature to put him there if you genuinely believe it - i've watched enough football to know what i believe and compare and contrast accordingly and that's where i put him as an absolute true exception to the rule. If others don't think he's that good then that's up to them but for me, it's not exagerating or hype - i seldom give out such high praise but I just think he's the best player i've ever seen in a Latics shirt for pure talent regardless of age or division.

 

[Will_Shahane]

But the difference is i wouldn't have said that about Sessegnon and I haven't said it about anyone else - just James as I think he's a complete one off. I don't think i'll say it again about anyone else.

It's absolutely not premature to put him there if you genuinely believe it - i've watched enough football to know what i believe and compare and contrast accordingly and that's where i put him as an absolute true exception to the rule. If others don't think he's that good then that's up to them but for me, it's not exagerating or hype - i seldom give out such high praise but I just think he's the best player i've ever seen in a Latics shirt for pure talent regardless of age or division.

Fair enough, King. If that’s what you believe then that’s absolutely fine.

The only argument against what you’re saying is that, perhaps you wouldn’t have formed the view that you have, if you’d seen him playing in the Premier League rather than the Championship. And that it’s unfair to state James as the most talented ‘regardless of the division’, because there’s another independent variable involved that could be influencing your judgement i.e. a lower league and quality of opposition.

I don’t really know where I stand on this myself tbh, but just trying to present a different view.

 

[Zeb2]

That's a misreptresentation of what i said, I never saw Kelly play .

I did .....and had Tony ‘the belly’ Kelly loved training more than he loved supping lager , he could have played (and graced) any level.

Broke my heart when he washed up at Bolton and orchestrated great FA Cup performances at Highbury and Anfield ....for that shower.

Reece James especially since he went to midfield, absolutely looks like an accomplished Premiership player operating in lower company.....for him to do that at 18/19 with no prior first team experience was astonishing.

( How strong will he be in another couple of years ?....he’s never been pushed off the ball by anyone ....and plenty tried !)

 

[Made in Wigan]

Your point MiW re the standard of this league is interesting, especially given the opinions oft expressed (not necessarily yours) throughout the season claiming the opposite.

Some good teams, some average, some shite. Better than say 15 years ago overall when we were in it. But no matter the opposition he was the best player on the park from either team, especially in midfield. I've never seen so much progression of a player throughout a season. Came as an unknown right back and left as a very good midfielder who will just get better and better. It is very rare you see young players that good, outside of europes elite and certainly not on loan in the championship. Worryingly we have to replace him - and sadly whoever we get won't be anywhere near his level unless we get lucky with another outstanding loanee.