Race Issues/Riots/Protests/BLM

[Gillette]

I don’t believe in disproportional rewards to make up for historical hardships if that’s what your implying. I think it encourages a mentality that the world owes me so I don’t have to work for it. I’m pretty sure the average Brit back in the 17th century didn’t agree with throwing lame people of boats in the Atlantic as much as I don’t agree with the proxy wars in the Middle East right now that kill innocent people - but powerless to stop.

There have been very few recommendations as to what needs to change, but someone did post a link to a guy called Zuby who talks a lot of sense on the topic. The U.K. is a wonderful place to live, and my black mates are living and prospering as much as I am - been to uni, got a career, moving to different cities. Unfortunately I believe the riots evolved into a wealth anger issue perhaps as a result of opportunities, and that caused a lot of resentment.

I think we need to look at the small changes that mean black families have the opportunities that I do. I’ve had subconscious bias training with my work, and I think all Line Managers who are responsible for employing others in a company of a certain should be required to undertake such learning by making it compulsory.

It’s a biological myth that people aren’t inherently racist - toddlers will play with the kids that look like them. Stripping us back to our raw basics, it’s probably a survival thing. My little boy will only play with other boys and they are all white.

I suspect all adults have an inherent, subconscious trait that gives preference to people that look like them. I think we need to address this issue and stop pretending it is all nurture.

I wasn't saying reparations or anything like that. I was just giving a holistic view on what has gone on in the past. And then saying ON TOP OF ALL THAT we still are still failing here and now.

 

[mike_field]

Having loosely followed the other thread - at least of a few hours back - the main difference here is it is the right time for a more prominent 'black' person to take the reins at the FA to 'woke' them up...

But...

That cannot be the only reason for an appointment and even then, even if it is the right time it absolutely has to be the right person for the job and not a tick box routine.

 

[colavfc]

I seem to be arguing in the Other Clubs Threat about appointing a black head of the FA without much success. Really it belongs in a racism thread which I haven't found with a search - so I'll post in here.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/stately-homes-built-back-slaves-8518002.html

The above isn't how many stately homes were paid for by slavery - just the ones paid for when slave owners were compensated to get rid of them.

Black people have to live in a World partly paid for by that suffering. Have to live in a World that has been racist since slavery ended. And they live in a country where they are still under-represented.

When you suggest we try to redress just the current imbalance (excluding any of the stuff in the past) people argue that the best man must always get the job.

We are lucky they don't riot every day. The slow wait for the snail-like change to true equality would not be put up with if it was the other way around.

Were 'lucky' that they are not rioting every day?
Flip that round... if that were to happen.... we would be 'lucky' the far right didnt cause some anti riots erm riots.
FFS we cant rewind time and eradicate past mistakes. Nor can we forward time and make black people make up 50% of the population.
If everyone just respected everyone else there wouldnt be a fecking problem.
I hate describing people by colour or race. They are people.
They can be classed as twats or scumbags, or angels and legends though.

The media are not helping things..... 'should the next chairman be black etc etc'.... automatically putting the attention on the successful persons colour and not their CV.

 

[danvilla2]

I wasn't saying reparations or anything like that. I was just giving a holistic view on what has gone on in the past. And then saying ON TOP OF ALL THAT we still are still failing here and now.

The failings now are very different. Racism used to be obvious, people were more open if they were racist and I saw things growing up I haven’t seen since. I remember the first time I went to London and there was a white lady shouting obscenities at a black man from her doorstep for no reason.

The problem is now it’s behind closed doors, and in aspects such as hiring as my example about managers, who won’t employ someone because they are a certainty sex, age or race. This is why we need training and not targets in my opinion.

What do you see as the solution?

 

[CDX_EIRE]

Black people have to live in a World partly paid for by that suffering. Have to live in a World that has been racist since slavery ended. And they live in a country where they are still under-represented.

When you suggest we try to redress just the current imbalance (excluding any of the stuff in the past) people argue that the best man must always get the job.

We are lucky they don't riot every day. The slow wait for the snail-like change to true equality would not be put up with if it was the other way around.

I don’t believe in disproportional rewards to make up for historical hardships if that’s what your implying. I think it encourages a mentality that the world owes me so I don’t have to work for it. I’m pretty sure the average Brit back in the 17th century didn’t agree with throwing lame people of boats in the Atlantic as much as I don’t agree with the proxy wars in the Middle East right now that kill innocent people - but powerless to stop.

There have been very few recommendations as to what needs to change, but someone did post a link to a guy called Zuby who talks a lot of sense on the topic. The U.K. is a wonderful place to live, and my black mates are living and prospering as much as I am - been to uni, got a career, moving to different cities. Unfortunately I believe the riots evolved into a wealth anger issue perhaps as a result of opportunities, and that caused a lot of resentment.

I think we need to look at the small changes that mean black families have the opportunities that I do. I’ve had subconscious bias training with my work, and I think all Line Managers who are responsible for employing others in a company of a certain should be required to undertake such learning by making it compulsory.

It’s a biological myth that people aren’t inherently racist - toddlers will play with the kids that look like them. Stripping us back to our raw basics, it’s probably a survival thing. My little boy will only play with other boys and they are all white.

I suspect all adults have an inherent, subconscious trait that gives preference to people that look like them. I think we need to address this issue and stop pretending it is all nurture.

Dan I tend to agree with you but its so complicated. First of all I think we all have implicit bias whether that is nature or nurture I don't know. Overt racism is fear, ignorance and upbringing IMO. I don't know where race as a social construct would fall into the nature vs. nurture side of things. Why it is confusing for me is that you had a colonial nation viewing all non-whites as savages except for the Irish who they also viewed as thick, savages. When Irish people and Italians wrested power in America and also began to subjugate black and indigenous people they became 'white' too.

Education is key as you say, I know I hold implicit bias and it works both ways which is another thing not often talked about. You also get black people who are biased against other black people. That's the 'social construct' and the world colonial powers created working masterfully.

Going back to what @Gillette says again it gets muddy. I personally think Black and Native Americans are owed something, what that is I don't know. The minority divisions that fought in WWII came back to a nation ready to lynch them. TBH I'd half consider federal income tax exceptions and way more should be done about public schools and mental health. Probably they should get free university education from any institution. At some point it would have to end but lock it in for a few generations or 200 years or something.

I think a lot of European nations owe debts around the world, we're unlikely to ever see that fixed or pursued but this is one injustice I think can be fixed. I think one of Bidens policies if it is enacted with all community colleges being free up to your household making $120,000 is a brilliant idea that is a long time coming. I think something like that or the federal taxes are a passive thing massively improves people's lies and isnt something for nothing. In either case you're still going to have to work and in the case of education it'll be wasted if you do it and don't continue to push on.

 

[mike_field]

Black people have to live in a World partly paid for by that suffering. Have to live in a World that has been racist since slavery ended. And they live in a country where they are still under-represented.

When you suggest we try to redress just the current imbalance (excluding any of the stuff in the past) people argue that the best man must always get the job.

We are lucky they don't riot every day. The slow wait for the snail-like change to true equality would not be put up with if it was the other way around.

I was trying to blind myself with the Trump thread and this one popped up again - and I did like your post but I still have issues with it - that I wasn't going to get into - but hey ho

Slavery wasn't just a black thing Gil and there were a number of blacks/ethnics involved in the trade (for profit) as well but we don't talk about them). I don't mean it to be whataboutary, but far more whites ended up in slavery (ironically via the Navy (whether Merchant or not and simply military). Plenty of white poor folks were also treated exactly as 'people of colour' but there's always the distinction that slavery can only occur if you are removed from your homeland - and it's a semantic fudge.

I don't mean to dismiss either experience or make them parallel. There is a systemic reason blacks/ethnic minorities go into health care for example. But not in the way the woke generation (and freeloading whingers) claim.

Education and aspiration plays a part - but plenty of black and ethnic minorities end up as Surgeons/accountants/GP's etc - that's because they are driven to that (which is racist in itself). But when that debate is had we are talking about top level care - we forget health workers/carers who wipe bums etc. That's why Covid hits those minorities more - but it's not racist in and of itself. Simply because that's what a generation sees as being their ceiling (with the aberrations that go higher - just like poor whites). As a white guy I can't change their ceiling if they are happy and content.

I also shouldn't. It's no more my job to tell somebody they are wasting their lives doing something they enjoy and works for them, than I should apologise for what great, great, great, great grandad dickhead might have done.

It's no more racist in reality than my missus loving her job looking after an autistic kid, working as a cleaner in a care home, or working as a mobile care nurse - she did the jobs BAME are now credited with. So racism or simply poor and lack of opportunity to do more - or simply happy with your lot?

Ethnic minorities are underrepresented as a whole - but by what tally? % to population in some cases over represented - that's why some adverts now have a token white person as opposed to token minority. This is where we are losing it by trying to tick boxes. Where's my catchment and representation.

Funny, ugly, hairy, deviant, intelligent but thick, socialist but believes in the death penalty etc etc. I'm not represented on TV. Difference is I won't protest or cry about it.

I'm both too drunk and not drunk enough to elaborate properly so I hope you get my gist.

 

[BodyButter]

I was trying to blind myself with the Trump thread and this one popped up again - and I did like your post but I still have issues with it - that I wasn't going to get into - but hey ho

Slavery wasn't just a black thing Gil and there were a number of blacks/ethnics involved in the trade (for profit) as well but we don't talk about them). I don't mean it to be whataboutary, but far more whites ended up in slavery (ironically via the Navy (whether Merchant or not and simply military). Plenty of white poor folks were also treated exactly as 'people of colour' but there's always the distinction that slavery can only occur if you are removed from your homeland - and it's a semantic fudge.

I don't mean to dismiss either experience or make them parallel. There is a systemic reason blacks/ethnic minorities go into health care for example. But not in the way the woke generation (and freeloading whingers) claim.

Education and aspiration plays a part - but plenty of black and ethnic minorities end up as Surgeons/accountants/GP's etc - that's because they are driven to that (which is racist in itself). But when that debate is had we are talking about top level care - we forget health workers/carers who wipe bums etc. That's why Covid hits those minorities more - but it's not racist in and of itself. Simply because that's what a generation sees as being their ceiling (with the aberrations that go higher - just like poor whites). As a white guy I can't change their ceiling if they are happy and content.

I also shouldn't. It's no more my job to tell somebody they are wasting their lives doing something they enjoy and works for them, than I should apologise for what great, great, great, great grandad dickhead might have done.

It's no more racist in reality than my missus loving her job looking after an autistic kid, working as a cleaner in a care home, or working as a mobile care nurse - she did the jobs BAME are now credited with. So racism or simply poor and lack of opportunity to do more - or simply happy with your lot?

Ethnic minorities are underrepresented as a whole - but by what tally? % to population in some cases over represented - that's why some adverts now have a token white person as opposed to token minority. This is where we are losing it by trying to tick boxes. Where's my catchment and representation.

Funny, ugly, hairy, deviant, intelligent but thick, socialist but believes in the death penalty etc etc. I'm not represented on TV. Difference is I won't protest or cry about it.

I'm both too drunk and not drunk enough to elaborate properly so I hope you get my gist.

It almost brings a tear to my eye.

 

[Pangloss]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...escribe-sporting-survey-finds-sporting-equals

'BAME' term offends those it attempts to describe, sporting survey finds

 

[danvilla2]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...escribe-sporting-survey-finds-sporting-equals

'BAME' term offends those it attempts to describe, sporting survey finds

I thought it stood for Black and Minority Ethnics. So if anyone thought that like me, we don’t even understand the acronym.

 

[BodyButter]

A lot of Asian people I know would be offended at being lumped in with Africans. I think the linguistic difficulties of the fight against racism points to an underlying flaw in the philosophy.

 

[danvilla2]

A lot of Asian people I know would be offended at being lumped in with Africans. I think the linguistic difficulties of the fight against racism points to an underlying flaw in the philosophy.

Let’s be honest as well, there’s a lot of racism between other ethnicities it isn’t just white people versus others. I find it amazing the racism that exists between people of the same culture just because they are from different Geographies or because of a surname.

 

[wittonite]

Let’s be honest as well, there’s a lot of racism between other ethnicities it isn’t just white people versus others. I find it amazing the racism that exists between people of the same culture just because they are from different Geographies or because of a surname.

During the course of my work I dealt extensively with Indians and Pakistanis, and the hatred they had for each other had to be seen to be believed.
It makes any prejudice between whites and non whites in the UK seem like friendly rivalry.

 

[Pangloss]

Let’s be honest as well, there’s a lot of racism between other ethnicities it isn’t just white people versus others. I find it amazing the racism that exists between people of the same culture just because they are from different Geographies or because of a surname.

Yes as I was saying yesterday some members of my mrs family (Indian) absolutely hate the term and some of them hate being lumped in with black people, this is due to racism.

 

[danvilla2]

At my work, there are is a weird tension between Indians from India and British Indians. The worst racism I’ve come across is from Indians. I actually get on well with British Indians though, worked with some great people as owe a lot to old managers who trained me well.

 

[colavfc]

Dan I tend to agree with you but its so complicated. First of all I think we all have implicit bias whether that is nature or nurture I don't know. Overt racism is fear, ignorance and upbringing IMO. I don't know where race as a social construct would fall into the nature vs. nurture side of things. Why it is confusing for me is that you had a colonial nation viewing all non-whites as savages except for the Irish who they also viewed as thick, savages. When Irish people and Italians wrested power in America and also began to subjugate black and indigenous people they became 'white' too.

Education is key as you say, I know I hold implicit bias and it works both ways which is another thing not often talked about. You also get black people who are biased against other black people. That's the 'social construct' and the world colonial powers created working masterfully.

Going back to what @Gillette says again it gets muddy. I personally think Black and Native Americans are owed something, what that is I don't know. The minority divisions that fought in WWII came back to a nation ready to lynch them. TBH I'd half consider federal income tax exceptions and way more should be done about public schools and mental health. Probably they should get free university education from any institution. At some point it would have to end but lock it in for a few generations or 200 years or something.

I think a lot of European nations owe debts around the world, we're unlikely to ever see that fixed or pursued but this is one injustice I think can be fixed. I think one of Bidens policies if it is enacted with all community colleges being free up to your household making $120,000 is a brilliant idea that is a long time coming. I think something like that or the federal taxes are a passive thing massively improves people's lies and isnt something for nothing. In either case you're still going to have to work and in the case of education it'll be wasted if you do it and don't continue to push on.

Dont think we 'owe' anyone of certain ethnicity anything over any other. Thats surely not how life works.
Your ancestors had shit so we give you this and that for free. No chance.
We all have shit. We all go through dark times. That should not be used to get handouts and free passages.
What i think we owe EVERYONE is respect, dignity and the CHANCE to become better people.... with everyone getting the same not just certain people.
Anti racism i am all for and would step in at any time any place anywhere if i saw it.... putting certain people on a pedastool and treading on egg shells.... no fecking chance.

 

[Pangloss]

Dan I tend to agree with you but its so complicated. First of all I think we all have implicit bias whether that is nature or nurture I don't know. Overt racism is fear, ignorance and upbringing IMO. I don't know where race as a social construct would fall into the nature vs. nurture side of things. Why it is confusing for me is that you had a colonial nation viewing all non-whites as savages except for the Irish who they also viewed as thick, savages. When Irish people and Italians wrested power in America and also began to subjugate black and indigenous people they became 'white' too.

Education is key as you say, I know I hold implicit bias and it works both ways which is another thing not often talked about. You also get black people who are biased against other black people. That's the 'social construct' and the world colonial powers created working masterfully.

Going back to what @Gillette says again it gets muddy. I personally think Black and Native Americans are owed something, what that is I don't know. The minority divisions that fought in WWII came back to a nation ready to lynch them. TBH I'd half consider federal income tax exceptions and way more should be done about public schools and mental health. Probably they should get free university education from any institution. At some point it would have to end but lock it in for a few generations or 200 years or something.

I think a lot of European nations owe debts around the world, we're unlikely to ever see that fixed or pursued but this is one injustice I think can be fixed. I think one of Bidens policies if it is enacted with all community colleges being free up to your household making $120,000 is a brilliant idea that is a long time coming. I think something like that or the federal taxes are a passive thing massively improves people's lies and isnt something for nothing. In either case you're still going to have to work and in the case of education it'll be wasted if you do it and don't continue to push on.

Sounds very Sanders-esque. For this to be properly relevant it should apply to trade schools, the last thing America wants is more people studying useless humanities degrees. It's not going to solve the problem as people will graduate with limited prospects.

 

[Gillette]

The Welsh hate Albanians is an excuse to not tackle anything we are doing? A black person somewhere profited from slavery - that distances our history of institutionalised farming of a continent (and what we did around the World as colonialists)?

Before we even tackle our past it's more important we tackle our present and future. Employing the "best man for the job" seems to be pretty ineffective at making any real change.

 

[Pangloss]

The Welsh hate Albanians is an excuse to not tackle anything we are doing? A black person somewhere profited from slavery - that distances our history of institutionalised farming of a continent (and what we did around the World as colonialists)?

Before we even tackle our past it's more important we tackle our present and future. Employing the "best man for the job" seems to be pretty ineffective at making any real change.

But wouldn't 'positive' discrimination be seen as undermining? Meritocracy appeals to most people, undermining that seems to defeat the point. I also don't see how positive discrimination is legal given current laws.

 

[danvilla2]

I think any aspiring person from an under privileged background with a talent whether that’s academic or sporting or in the arts deserves a chance - regardless of their race. I think the state and charities should support that with a little from the public coffers, and wealthier people can donate to help.

For what it’s worth, I saw a programme the other week about undergraduate pilots who had their training loans cancelled by the airline, the white middle class kids apparently could afford the private fee whereas the black guy couldn’t. He did a lot of work to get noticed, I donated a little to his cause and he got his £60k within hours of it going on tele.

I think we have to be careful, apparently there’s no such thing as a free lunch but too many people ask for a free lunch and get it without warranting it. I think it’s quite poor form to want to profiteer from an ancestors hardship, however I don’t oppose the state supporting the prospects of the hard up now. I saw a stat earlier that over 3% of Oxford uni’s intake were from black communities which is above the the national average of the makeup of black people. Whether that’s Oxford uni proactively driving that statistic, I don’t know but nevertheless if that trend is reflective across unis then that’s great and how it should be. If there are talented students whoas parents can’t afford a laptop for uni or to even go to uni, then we should absolutely support them to enable them a step onto the ladder in life.

 

[danvilla2]

The Welsh hate Albanians is an excuse to not tackle anything we are doing? A black person somewhere profited from slavery - that distances our history of institutionalised farming of a continent (and what we did around the World as colonialists)?

Before we even tackle our past it's more important we tackle our present and future. Employing the "best man for the job" seems to be pretty ineffective at making any real change.

I think this should be a very delicate 1 degree shift and like the effect of a lever, a small change could produce a bigger adverse impact equally a small change can start to make a big difference. But it has to be delicate to not cause resentment, because that’s the downside.

I’d like a world where the best person got the job and as a white male, saying that historically isn’t to my advantage. I’d make all CV applications before interview stage anonymous to hiring managers, so that they look solely at the content of the CV as opposed to trying to work out the character from a name or how old the lady is from her graduation to make sure she doesn’t swan off to have a baby 5 months into the job - this does still happen.

In the other thread that this was being discussed, I think it was CDX that posted around this, you can’t always tell the difference a woman or a black person on a board or leading a company would make. It might have positives above and beyond the simplistic “who is the better person for the job right now ” through intangible benefits - such as inspiring others to succeed or bringing a different way of thinking or values to a company.

I do think you have a point about making yeh change but for me, it needs to be very delicately managed and in the right. Ultimately, as custodians of my capital if you are a director of a private company or you run a public company, you have a lot of responsibility and it does need someone qualified for the role and not someone who can tick PR boxes.