Post Brexit (n/g)

[PuB]

Much of the population care more about the 1,300,000 arrivals last year - and the 1,200,000 arrivals the year before...

...than they do about 30-50,000 Channel-crossers.

But many find it harder to complain about legal immigration.
It is much easier to complain about illegal immigrants rocking up to Kent beaches, without permission or ID.

As for "negotiating for in some exit deal..."
...how was your crystal ball in 2016, 2017 ?

I renamed my crystal ball ‘project fear’. But thank you.

 

[Tarian]

Ok. I'll bite.
Odd to declare 'You really don't get it do you?' and then follow it up with a comment that does not get it.
Of course Putin's Russia saw it would benefit from a weaker Europe. Their aggressive bot operation that saturated social media with pro Leave propaganda was a part of the hushed up Russia report that almost everyone had personally witnessed. You cannot deny that surely?
Cameron launched the ill planned and poorly prepared referendum but Putin, the immigrant blaming right wing press and hedge fund managers absolutely knew what result was best for them and used their power and influence accordingly and managed to just scrape the result over the line.

"Their (Russia's) aggressive bot operation that saturated social media with pro-Leave propaganda" ????

How about some evidence ?

Also, I take that as a personal insult !
My friend and I led the Leave campaign in our local area.

Now you are telling us we've been mistaken to think that our local result had anything to do with, 100 or so volunteers, the 120,000 leaflets delivered (some locally designed) the multiple public activities, thousands of doors knocked on !
(Didn't receive a single ruble, honest !)

 

[PuB]

"Their (Russia's) aggressive bot operation that saturated social media with pro-Leave propaganda" ????

How about some evidence ?

Also, I take that as a personal insult !
My friend and I led the Leave campaign in our local area.

Now you are telling us we've been mistaken to think that our local result had anything to do with, 100 or so volunteers, the 120,000 leaflets delivered (some locally designed) the multiple public activities, thousands of doors knocked on !
(Didn't receive a single ruble, honest !)

Some other snowflake claiming personal insults when there weren’t any.

 

[Tarian]

Let me give you one example of where you’re wrong. For a number of years local councils have been coming together to share services. For instance, not all councils have a Finance Department. One council might have one and maybe two other councils will use it for their financial services. Any idea why they do that ? It’s to save money. It’s called the economies of scale. The EU was one of the biggest and most ambitious schemes using that principle. Part of the money we paid over was for things like the subscription to be part of the European Medicines Agency. Now out of the EU we have had to set up our own equivalent body. Multiply that dozens of times across all the agencies and add up the cost of doing so and you get why your simple maths is a complete oversimplification.

There is a huge difference between two LOCAL councils agreeing to provide a service jointly....
....and centralising at a National level....
....and you're trying to defend Supra-national centralising.

"Economic of scale " tend to get lost, the more remote the service is managed - and the bureacracy gets bigger.
Service quality reduces, as local variations are eliminated for "economies of scale"....
....until it becomes obvious that those local variations are necessary, (e.g. bin collections).
By which time it is too late to employ a local contractor, with lower overheads than National MegaCorp.

Multiple Agencies doesn't equal no co-operation between them.
Also, take your Medicines Agency for example.
It is open for the UK Government to accept Certification by the EMA, so fast-track approval.
It's called mutual recognition.

....and the

 

[Tarian]

And why are we rejoining ? Because of course your highly simplistic take is only a small part of the story. We need to be part of a major cross national scientific collaboration. Being outside meant scientists were leaving the UK because they were missing out on that collaboration. We can’t achieve anything like as much as an individual nation. Staying outside was unsustainable. Other areas will follow. We might not rejoin but piece by piece we will rebuild the building blocks that will create the conditions to rejoin at some point in the future.

How many scientists:
"were leaving the UK"...
...either for "missing out on collaboration"
or for any other reason ?

 

[Gills77]

Some other snowflake claiming personal insults when there weren’t any.

You told me I didn't know what I'm on about. That's a personal insult.

And you said that to ignore my question:

How can Chinese and US scientists work with EU ones, but UK scientists cannot because we're not in the EU?

 

[Tarian]

Christ, what data do you require? Use any measurement you want, it was and remains a monumental act of self harm.

Like I asked before, name me one tangible thing that is better now than it was when we were in the EU.

The main "tangible thing" was the ability to have UK laws made by UK MPs....
...instead of initiated by EU bureaucrats then approved by foreign politicians.

Don't forget that the EU created over 23,000 laws - of which over 16,000 were for internal matters, not cross-border trade.

And amongst those re-patriated laws was tariffs.
The UK has cut hundreds of import duties - the most tecent including fruit juices and some chemicals.

We no longer have to accept unlimited immigration from the EU.
(That this government has opened the gates to milliond of non-EU immigrants is a separate matter.)

We no longer have to pay a fee of ££billions...
...for the dubious privilege of being locked into a huge Trade Deficit of around £ 95,000,000,000 p.a. (pre-Covid)

Now it's your turn.
Evidence of "Brexit disaster".

 

[Tarian]

Some other snowflake claiming personal insults when there weren’t any.

Oh dear.
A Leftie not very good at understanding a joke !

 

[Tarian]

Imagine for a moment if you will, you’re a library and you share your collection of books with 28 others, each able to look at all books at anyones request. Then imagine one day thinking it’s a silly idea and you’d rather be independent so cut ties, suddenly you have access to 1/28th of the books you could previously access freely.

And no longer receive the same funding either.

Silly analogy.
Countries could agree to provide mutual access to each other's books....
....without requiring a government to make laws on a host of other stuff.
Co-operation does not require subjugation.

 

[PuB]

Silly analogy.
Countries could agree to provide mutual access to each other's books....
....without requiring a government to make laws on a host of other stuff.
Co-operation does not require subjugation.

Well have a guess which other countries we agreed to ‘provide mutual access’ to for a very long time, and then it stopped.

 

[Tarian]

Sorry but that’s rubbish. “Top university’ has got nothing to do with the best science. Where’s our Hadron Collider ? How could we have afforded that on our own ? Although not in a full EU member state, it was jointly funded by EU countries.

The Hadron Collider is buried under Switzerland (not EU) and France.
I'm pretty sure that the location has a lot to do with the rocks.

For a similar reason, another Physics project is sited in Italy....
...and another in Chile.

 

[Tarian]

Sorry Shotshy, that's rubbish. It's the UK scientific community that's desperate to re join Erasmus. Just look at anything written about the subject by Paul Nurse.
Since leaving our ability to attract the best young talent has dropped through the floor.

The "UK Scientific community" ???

Is that anything like the "black community" or the "muslim community" or the "gay community"....
...where all within have the same approved narrative ?

 

[Tarian]

You know nothing about Science. You know nothing about science funding. Just give it up.

What do you know about "science funding".
Please share.

(just not 'cos the Guardian/BBC says so)

 

[PuB]

What do you know about "science funding".
Please share.

(just not 'cos the Guardian/BBC says so)

Genuine question, do you ever stop and think about why those in the scientific community are desperate to get involved in the EU knowledge scheme again?

Edit: and less of the personal insults please.

 

[Tarian]

You have no idea how the sharing of knowledge works, and it’s plain to see.

Hmm....
People with a common interest read each other's scientific papers, or pick up the phone - or email each other - or join an online forum perhaps ?

And if they see merit in extended personal contact, they meet in person somewhere - perhaps in twos, tens or even hundreds.

Obviously the latter can cost money in travel, so they make a case to some budget holder.

How am I doing so far ?

 

[Tarian]

Well have a guess which other countries we agreed to ‘provide mutual access’ to for a very long time, and then it stopped.

You really haven't understood the EU or its history / evolution.

In the late 70s, many lobbied for "mutual recognition" when it came to standards etc.
The other lobby was for "harmonisation".

The latter won...

...which, by requiring top-down, interfering law-making was one of the underlying causes of Brexit.

Which is not the same as "mutual acess".

 

[Tarian]

Genuine question, do you ever stop and think about why those in the scientific community are desperate to get involved in the EU knowledge scheme again?

Edit: and less of the personal insults please.

Edit ?
Which bit of that post was an "insult" ?

If you say "tone"....
...do I really have to go back and look for condescending remarks about the ignorance - or age of Leavers ?
Or perhaps an implied accusation of some "ism or "ist ?

And who called someone a "snowflake" ?

I did say one of your posts was "silly"....
...and gave a reason.
Surely that is different from a gratuitous insult ?
(Which I don't think has been reached - yet !)

 

[Gills77]

PuB, you've ignored my question. Please answer:

How can Chinese and US scientists work with EU colleagues, but UK scientists cannot because we're not in the EU?

 

[Tarian]

Genuine question, do you ever stop and think about why those in the scientific community are desperate to get involved in the EU knowledge scheme again?

Edit: and less of the personal insults please.

"some" of those in the scientific "community" ?

Money ?
Prestige ?

 

[PuB]

PuB, you've ignored my question. Please answer:

How can Chinese and US scientists work with EU colleagues, but UK scientists cannot because we're not in the EU?

You’re asking a question with no merit.

You think we’re better off not sharing what we know with the EU scientists, and in return having no input from them, in the basic hope that one day we listen to China’s facts (sweet baby Jesus) and that the USA might be be interested too.

I will ask again why do you think the science community here are asking to get back to where we were?