Points deductions in general | Vital Football

Points deductions in general

weejockmcplop

weejockmcplop

Vital Champions League
Does anyone else think that points deductions for things that have happened off the pitch are actually a huge problem when it comes to the integrity of competition in the league?

I don't know if its just me, but I feel like what happens on the pitch in matches is what should affect the league table, nothing else.

Its less that we might get relegated and more that Luton have had a relegation season and might stay up anyway purely because the Premier League say so.

Honestly its really sapping my will to continue watching football at all. My 'other team' Nuneaton went under this season and with all this in the Premier League it just seems like football is not about actual football any more. Its just a rich person's playground and more of a financial operation than a fucking sport.

Surely punishments under P&S or FFP or whatever should be more like transfer embargoes and stuff so off the field mistakes are punished off the field, and on the field performance is rewarded in the league table.

I'm sure this independent regulator is going to make things even worse as well.

Its all a load of bullshit.

Rant over.
 
I think that in the future, what has happened this season will be looked back on as an absolute shambles.

No doubt Luton, Brentford and Palace fans, by and large, are keen on it because it gives them a better chance of surviving, and we would feel the same.

But overall, it is turning this season into a joke where relegation is being decided in courtrooms based on nebulous and highly contestable financial issues that happened in a totally different season to the one the club's are competing in.

Everton docked 10 points in the autumn - they are angry, feel it is unjust and turn that righteous indignation into four wins in five, which more than wipes off the penalty. We are one of the victims of that.

Everton then have that penalty reduced by 4 points in the spring - we go down a place and nearer to relegation without even playing a game

Forest then deducted 4 points due to, what effectively comes down to a difference of interpretation. This is with just 9 games to go, and unsurprisingly just after we've played our last meaningful game against a key rival. We drop into the relegation zone.

For some reason, Everton's hearing is weeks later, the decision in early April- they may then he docked up to 6 points, but it might be none.

Forest have an appeal that might potentially give back one point, but we are unsure if it could result in it increasing by up to four. The won't be until May.

So we've already seen 10 points deducted from two relegation battlers, with potentially up to 16 by the end; for offences committed in a different season, and under rules that have already been scrapped because they are shite.

It is an absolute shambles. We haven't been able to trust the table since about October and we still can't.
 
Agree with both posts. This morning now reading many stories they we have to sell in order to comply by June 30th again, which will also mean we cannot invest this summer for next season, now renders the whole league and our place in it, absolutely pointless

So next season assume it’s Murillo or MGW who leave(or both) and we cannot replace either of them. Great league you have there Mr Premier League. Way to go.

It’s disgusting and a farce.
 
Pope John XXIII said:
No doubt Luton, Brentford and Palace fans, by and large, are keen on it because it gives them a better chance of surviving, and we would feel the same.
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Yeah I think this is important because we've benefited from this stuff before and in general I wasn't arsed when it was just Everton, so I suppose we can't expect any support from fans of other clubs.

There seems to be (unless I'm just paranoid) an attempt to play Forest and Everton fans against each other from the PL too, probably to distract from what a fucking mess they've made of everything.
 
weejockmcplop said:
Yeah I think this is important because we've benefited from this stuff before and in general I wasn't arsed when it was just Everton, so I suppose we can't expect any support from fans of other clubs.

There seems to be (unless I'm just paranoid) an attempt to play Forest and Everton fans against each other from the PL too, probably to distract from what a fucking mess they've made of everything.
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You're only paranoid if it isn't true.
 
weejockmcplop said:
There seems to be (unless I'm just paranoid) an attempt to play Forest and Everton fans against each other from the PL too, probably to distract from what a fucking mess they've made of everything.
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Fuck the PL.

Fuck those corrupt cockroaches.

If a hell exists, I hope they all burn in it.
 
I think generally on this forum, if and when we've benfitted from poor decisions of refs (not this season!) or we've been given an unfair advantage for some reason we're pretty aware of it - the attitude is "that's a joke but we'll take it".

Point deductions are a weird thing because the same deduction hits teams at the bottom disproportionately hard compared to ones at the top. 4 points to a Man City? They'll clear that deduction in two games. For us, its 16% of the points we've earned that have been docked. If you applied that % to teams at the top of the table its equivalent to just over 10 points.

Profitability and Sustainability. Bullshit. These rules that are supposed to "protect" our clubs finances were forcing us to sell a valuable asset on the cheap for the sake of two months, and are now extremely likely to financially cripple us through relegation. There is no way on earth that anyone can say these rules or the punishment have worked to safeguard NFFCs financial viability as a football club.

Transfer embargoes and other forms of punishments to ensure a club gets it's finances in order, fine. But points deductions that could cost clubs millions upon millions through relegation is surely the exact opposite of what the rules should be doing.
 
LynxRed said:
I think generally on this forum, if and when we've benfitted from poor decisions of refs (not this season!) or we've been given an unfair advantage for some reason we're pretty aware of it - the attitude is "that's a joke but we'll take it".

Point deductions are a weird thing because the same deduction hits teams at the bottom disproportionately hard compared to ones at the top. 4 points to a Man City? They'll clear that deduction in two games. For us, its 16% of the points we've earned that have been docked. If you applied that % to teams at the top of the table its equivalent to just over 10 points.
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thats an interesting point and although I disagree with any points deduction, maybe one that was a percentage of your total points over the season would be more 'fair'? I assume the sides at the top wouldn't agree. if it was say 10% deduction of total points, taken off at the end of the season you would know what you are aiming for.

but irrelevant now, and with new rules coming in
 
weejockmcplop said:
Does anyone else think that points deductions for things that have happened off the pitch are actually a huge problem when it comes to the integrity of competition in the league?

I don't know if its just me, but I feel like what happens on the pitch in matches is what should affect the league table, nothing else.

Its less that we might get relegated and more that Luton have had a relegation season and might stay up anyway purely because the Premier League say so.

Honestly its really sapping my will to continue watching football at all. My 'other team' Nuneaton went under this season and with all this in the Premier League it just seems like football is not about actual football any more. Its just a rich person's playground and more of a financial operation than a fucking sport.

Surely punishments under P&S or FFP or whatever should be more like transfer embargoes and stuff so off the field mistakes are punished off the field, and on the field performance is rewarded in the league table.

I'm sure this independent regulator is going to make things even worse as well.

Its all a load of bullshit.

Rant over.
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Isn't a transfer embargo a sporting penalty, much like a points deduction?

At the end of the day, these are huge corporations turning over £6bn a year, more than Fiji's GDP.

Everything is geared towards the performance of the first team, so what other punishments are prudent, other than the most direct form of censure.
 
LynxRed said:
I think generally on this forum, if and when we've benfitted from poor decisions of refs (not this season!) or we've been given an unfair advantage for some reason we're pretty aware of it - the attitude is "that's a joke but we'll take it".

Point deductions are a weird thing because the same deduction hits teams at the bottom disproportionately hard compared to ones at the top. 4 points to a Man City? They'll clear that deduction in two games. For us, its 16% of the points we've earned that have been docked. If you applied that % to teams at the top of the table its equivalent to just over 10 points.

Profitability and Sustainability. Bullshit. These rules that are supposed to "protect" our clubs finances were forcing us to sell a valuable asset on the cheap for the sake of two months, and are now extremely likely to financially cripple us through relegation. There is no way on earth that anyone can say these rules or the punishment have worked to safeguard NFFCs financial viability as a football club.

Transfer embargoes and other forms of punishments to ensure a club gets it's finances in order, fine. But points deductions that could cost clubs millions upon millions through relegation is surely the exact opposite of what the rules should be doing.
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Ultimately, we (premier league fans) need to ask ourselves the simple question of these rules:

Is it possible for a club to come from nothing and do what Man City or Chelsea did, to become sustained challengers at the top?

We have all learned this week that the answer is an emphatic NO.

Under these rules, it is impossible to go from being one of the also fans to being a consistent title challenger
 
No I don’t believe penalty points should ever be used Transfer window embargoes where you can sell not buy and where you then have no choice but to reduce your deficit which is surely the aiim of PSR.
 
i think the way we have been run the last few years we should probably have double the ponts deduction , its a long way from prem standard. :)

Yes i think points penalty is far more appropriate than a fine for several reasons. Tho I do think perhaps transfer embargos on buying is probably a better inbetween, giving the option of a club surviving through its capabilities more than the finances.
If Clough was manager this club would still be half way up the league even if wed not bought mgw and sangare imo
 
Pope John XXIII said:
Ultimately, we (premier league fans) need to ask ourselves the simple question of these rules:

Is it possible for a club to come from nothing and do what Man City or Chelsea did, to become sustained challengers at the top?

We have all learned this week that the answer is an emphatic NO.

Under these rules, it is impossible to go from being one of the also fans to being a consistent title challenger
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They may not be sustained challengers at the top, but Leicester City did actually win the league 8 years ago. That was only two years after they had been promoted (and 7 years after they had been in League One).
 
Pope John XXIII said:
We

Did

Not

Cheat
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Does deliberately ignoring the rules constitute cheating? If so, then we did; if not, because we have not tried to conceal it, then we did not. But is a player who deliberately makes a professional foul a cheat? I would say yes.
 
chandos9 said:
Does deliberately ignoring the rules constitute cheating? If so, then we did; if not, because we have not tried to conceal it, then we did not. But is a player who deliberately makes a professional foul a cheat? I would say yes.
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Breaking rules and cheating are two different things.

Some things might be both. This is not one of them
 
I do not think that the imposition of penalties such as points deductions and embargoes are the issue; the manner in which they are imposed is the issue.

The very same can be said for the way in which Clubs are cited in the first instance.

Assuming the new rules will be workable and equitable, and that is a very big assumption, the rules should be framed in way that states what the penalty is for the breach.

The current rules are fraught with ambiguity and do not have any transparent scale of penalty; penalties appear to be based on what Richard Master's thinks appropriate.
 
BlackGold said:
Isn't a transfer embargo a sporting penalty, much like a points deduction?

At the end of the day, these are huge corporations turning over £6bn a year, more than Fiji's GDP.

Everything is geared towards the performance of the first team, so what other punishments are prudent, other than the most direct form of censure.
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Of course you would think this, you want horrible things to happen to Forest, hence wanting Cooper out.
 
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