Pot and kettle? Where have I mentioned people's skin colour?
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Our NHS (n/G)
- Thread starter Buddha
- Start date
Ok, replace skin colour with your obsession with "foreigners".
Never did find out the reason for the stabbings and crime that you alluded to the other week. Do explain it to me please.
He was being sarcastic
Tories never wanted the NHS? The NHS was actually devised by Sir Henry Willink, the Conservative Health Minister during the coalition Government in 1945 but Tories lost the 1945 GE, so Labour implemented his idea instead.
You've not actually listed a single specific thing the Tories have done to ruin the NHS, just lots of generalisations.
So I didn't say it? Thanks for clearing that up.
I said low skilled people.... I even substantiated this further by saying low-tax paying.
Low skilled immigration let's the middle/upper class pay lower wages and increase rent/house prices. Why else do you think they love it? You think all those right-wing capitalists suddenly changed to left-wing ideology? Or they're profiteering from it?
Millions more using public services: hospitals, schools, GPs etc. But it doesn't affect the middle/upper class because they will just use private healthcare and schools. Meanwhile the remaining 90% get screwed.
Wages are so low the Government has to give benefits to people in work.
Is life better now with 10+ million more people than in 1997? Higher house prices, lower salaries compared with cost of living, more congestion, more traffic, more crime, more stress.
The left-wingers are probably correct with their "we're poorer now" arguments but they're so focussed whining about the Tories (as we've seen here) they're not seeing the real reason.
EagerExile
Vital Squad Member
There's plenty of historical evidence to show that the NHS in general flourishes under Labour governments and struggles under the Tories - eg public approval, waiting lists, A&E response times. That tends to be linked to funding. All governments increase NHS budgets, but Labour have historically done it by more.
However, as ever with the NHS, it's complicated. The NHS is horribly inefficient (I know, I've worked in it) - and we have to cut the current regime some slack because of Covid. Demand has increased, waiting lists naturally lengthened while the NHS was dealing with the pandemic, and NHS productivity has failed to improve even though funding and staffing have increased significantly since 2020.
The NHS is hidebound by the tension between its leadership and politicians, it's too big and too complex. The fact that it's free at the point of delivery means that people abuse it. The population is ageing and we're generally getting unhealthier. We need a national conversation about what our health service does and doesn't do. We have 4 choices:
1. The NHS limps along unchanged, without the funding it needs. It will slowly die, with crumbling facilities, worsening access and increasingly unsafe services.
2. Keep the current NHS remit and fund it properly. That will bankrupt the country by 2070, maybe sooner.
3. Shift to a funding mix split between taxation and private insurance (like Germany and France). This would give the NHS long term viability but we'd all have to pay more.
4. The NHS shrinks (eg only providing long-term and emergency care), with us individually having to pay for non-urgent stuff like GP appointments and hip replacements.
All 4 options are electoral suicide, which is why politicians shy away from a proper debate about the future of the NHS. But sooner or later we're going to have to grasp the nettle. Until then, the only solution is to try and improve the NHS's appalling productivity record. Fair play to Wes Streeting and Labour for talking about this openly. It may not be popular, but it's the right thing to do.
Here endeth the lesson!
However, as ever with the NHS, it's complicated. The NHS is horribly inefficient (I know, I've worked in it) - and we have to cut the current regime some slack because of Covid. Demand has increased, waiting lists naturally lengthened while the NHS was dealing with the pandemic, and NHS productivity has failed to improve even though funding and staffing have increased significantly since 2020.
The NHS is hidebound by the tension between its leadership and politicians, it's too big and too complex. The fact that it's free at the point of delivery means that people abuse it. The population is ageing and we're generally getting unhealthier. We need a national conversation about what our health service does and doesn't do. We have 4 choices:
1. The NHS limps along unchanged, without the funding it needs. It will slowly die, with crumbling facilities, worsening access and increasingly unsafe services.
2. Keep the current NHS remit and fund it properly. That will bankrupt the country by 2070, maybe sooner.
3. Shift to a funding mix split between taxation and private insurance (like Germany and France). This would give the NHS long term viability but we'd all have to pay more.
4. The NHS shrinks (eg only providing long-term and emergency care), with us individually having to pay for non-urgent stuff like GP appointments and hip replacements.
All 4 options are electoral suicide, which is why politicians shy away from a proper debate about the future of the NHS. But sooner or later we're going to have to grasp the nettle. Until then, the only solution is to try and improve the NHS's appalling productivity record. Fair play to Wes Streeting and Labour for talking about this openly. It may not be popular, but it's the right thing to do.
Here endeth the lesson!
jokerman
Vital Football Hero
Thanks for that! I found it really helpful.
And, of course, this difficult conversation is only one of several which have to take place and which will exert their own demands on the public purse.
Therealwaldo
Vital Squad Member
The only thing I’d add is that when the Kings Fund did an analysis of funding they noted that the share of National Income spent on the NHS has risen under every government both Labour and Tory every year since its inception in 1948. The only two exceptions were (a) during the Thatcher years and (b) from 2010 to date. So that’s not about total funding. It’s about the NHS as a national priority when set against everything else.
chris who
Vital Champions League
I can't see the UK ever rejoining the EU.If they become independent at somepoint the Scottish might vote to join.But for the rest of the UK I believe rejoining the customs Union and or the single market in some capacity could happen in this decade. Such is the switch in public opinion.
The Swiss and Norwegians make it work for them.https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/gdp-per-capita-ppp?continent=europe
While there economies are not as big. Per person they are both doing well against the UK.So while there are massive stumbling blocks in the way. With the Tories falling flat on their face in the forthcoming election. There will be room for a proper debate and a positive outcome with the Tory/ Reform section of voting public nowhere in Parliament.
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And this is because the Labour party haven't represented true British people since the early 90s.
They've always hated Britain, like all the left-leaning parties.
PuB
Vital 1st Team Regular
And that underfunding of the last 14 years included the billions spent on unusable Covid PPE and the failed Test and Trace system which was bundled in to the NHS budget.
Gobbledygook.
I actually feel sorry for you.
By way of anecdote my Brexit fanatic mate (Captain of my cricket team) admitted to me last summer that he wanted to move to Portugal but can't now. Me, the "Britain hater" has no intention of leaving. I managed to resist saying "I told you so". He thought Rees Mogg was a hero who loved this country until I pointed out he moved his hedge funds to Dublin straight after Brexit
Hmm, go figure.
Btw, if Labour represented the British people as you suggest, they'd get slaughtered by voters such as you. What do you actually want? You seem very confused.
Feel sorry for yourself. You've replied to multiple of my messages and not once have you responded with a coherent, logical response, just pointless messages like the one I quoted, along with "Gobbledygook" before that.
How/why does that respond to my point Labour haven't represented the real British people since the early 90s?
PuB
Vital 1st Team Regular
I think it would be helpful for us if you could quantify who the real British people are?
It would be interesting to hear from a Spain domiciled ex-pat on this
Whisky Gill
Vital Youth Team
I recently went to see Adam Kaye, ex doctor and author of "This is going to hurt" In a show. The picture that he painted of working for the NHS was horrific, including the high suicide rate for both doctors and nurses. Staff are leaving in droves, often to Oz. You can build as many hospitals as you want but it is pointless if you can't get the staff to work in them.
Therealwaldo
Vital Squad Member
I know this is obviously going round in circles but those of us who saw leaving as a mistake did respect the decision but we were mislead by leading voices on the Vote Leave side who asked “What would be bad about being like Norway and Switzerland”. People like me were happy to accept the vote on the expectation that the closeness of the vote would lead to some compromise along those lines. Of course we now know that was all lies. That’s what’s deepened the divisions and made people like me so angry and quite willing to bang on about it until the UK’s position is reversed.
Archiepoptart
Vital 1st Team Regular
