Our NHS (n/G) | Page 6 | Vital Football

Our NHS (n/G)

chris who said:
I can't see the UK ever rejoining the EU.If they become independent at somepoint the Scottish might vote to join.But for the rest of the UK I believe rejoining the customs Union and or the single market in some capacity could happen in this decade. Such is the switch in public opinion.
The Swiss and Norwegians make it work for them.https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/gdp-per-capita-ppp?continent=europe
While there economies are not as big. Per person they are both doing well against the UK.So while there are massive stumbling blocks in the way. With the Tories falling flat on their face in the forthcoming election. There will be room for a proper debate and a positive outcome with the Tory/ Reform section of voting public nowhere in Parliament.
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Agreed, but I could see that creating its own problems.

As far as I can see, there is no way that the EU would allow us back in the single market without free movement of people and that, IMHO, is still the main point of contention. Gills77 has highlighted the probable reasons why that is the case.

You can argue as much as you like about immigration actually increasing since Brexit, but the point is that we do at least have more power and the tools to control numbers in the future, if we choose to.

And I doubt that you could have a referendum on just the single market, so if the government of the day took us back in to it just off their own backs, I think there would be hell to pay from both the right and those that still support Brexit.
 
Whisky Gill said:
I recently went to see Adam Kaye, ex doctor and author of "This is going to hurt" In a show. The picture that he painted of working for the NHS was horrific, including the high suicide rate for both doctors and nurses. Staff are leaving in droves, often to Oz. You can build as many hospitals as you want but it is pointless if you can't get the staff to work in them.
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That's one way of putting it, but it is strange that applications for places on Medical Degree courses are still heavily over subscribed. Retention is what needs to be improved.

And if every country is in a better position than us, why are so many doctors only choosing somewhere on the opposite side of the world? Are they fed up with having that ozone layer? Or are those doctors specialists in melanoma?

There is a TV programme called Wanted Down Under where everyone featured, whatever they do for a living seemingly, would earn more which really impresses them. They then work out the cost of housing and the higher cost of living (because every job is higher paid) and their initial elation seems to reduce.

They then have tearful phone calls with friends and family and both sides are distraught, but they usually go ahead regardless. I would still think only a minority would make those sacrifices and many come back.

They all also seem to think they will have more time with their family so obviously work shorter hours so, if true, their hospitals will need a lot more doctors per head, to provide cover 24 hours a day.
 
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I'll let OSK comment about Aus.
We get loads of UK nurses and doctors in NZ. Why do they come here? Climate, lifestyle and working conditions. They don't all stay for life. Some can't handle the transition (it can be tough) and being away from family and friends and return to the UK after a year or two. Some yo-yo until they settle. Most settle here after a few years.
To make emigration work you have to be committed and remind yourself occasionally why you decided to move in the first place.
We've got a lot of UK teachers here. In the school I worked at a third of the teachers were British particularly STEM teachers (all the science teachers were British). Same reasons, lifestyle, lack of stress better working conditions.
 
GillsBluenose said:
That's one way of putting it, but it is strange that applications for places on Medical Degree courses are still heavily over subscribed. Retention is what needs to be improved.

And if every country is in a better position than us, why are so many doctors only choosing somewhere on the opposite side of the world? Are they fed up with having that ozone layer? Or are those doctors specialists in melanoma?

There is a TV programme called Wanted Down Under where everyone featured, whatever they do for a living seemingly, would earn more which really impresses them. They then work out the cost of housing and the higher cost of living (because every job is higher paid) and their initial elation seems to reduce.

They then have tearful phone calls with friends and family and both sides are distraught, but they usually go ahead regardless. I would still think only a minority would make those sacrifices and many come back.

They all also seem to think they will have more time with their family so obviously work shorter hours so, if true, their hospitals will need a lot more doctors per head, to provide cover 24 hours a day.
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Some good points gbn but I never said that every country was in a better position than us. Just reporting what an ex doctor had said.
 
Archiepoptart said:
I'll let OSK comment about Aus.
We get loads of UK nurses and doctors in NZ. Why do they come here? Climate, lifestyle and working conditions. They don't all stay for life. Some can't handle the transition (it can be tough) and being away from family and friends and return to the UK after a year or two. Some yo-yo until they settle. Most settle here after a few years.
To make emigration work you have to be committed and remind yourself occasionally why you decided to move in the first place.
We've got a lot of UK teachers here. In the school I worked at a third of the teachers were British particularly STEM teachers (all the science teachers were British). Same reasons, lifestyle, lack of stress better working conditions.
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Similar with other UK public services . Police services from NZ, Australia and Canada still actively recruit in the UK - and they`re pretty successful.
 
Archiepoptart said:
Still a few around apparently
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Not a few - large numbers have mixed dna which includes Neanderthal. Usual self righteous science denied it.
Also the welsh are not the original britons, they are later and mainly from iberia.
So we have neanderthal followed by ancient hunter gatherers followed by beaker people way before the celtic or germanic peoples arrived.
If more ancient skeletons are dug up we may find that the dna and migration stories change. Currently we have the africa theory which appears fairly solid but based on small samples and finds.

Scientific 'fact' changes all the time e.g. continental drift now plate tectonics.
 
Gills77 said:
Tories never wanted the NHS? The NHS was actually devised by Sir Henry Willink, the Conservative Health Minister during the coalition Government in 1945 but Tories lost the 1945 GE, so Labour implemented his idea instead.

You've not actually listed a single specific thing the Tories have done to ruin the NHS, just lots of generalisations.
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Whilst Willink was certainly involved in the production of the Beveridge Report that outlined the urgent need for some kind of national health service free at the point of delivery, he always opposed the nationalisation of the existing private and voluntary infrastructure that was later to become the backbone of the NHS. He claimed that such nationalisation would, "destroy so much in this country that we value".

As I said above, the Tories continually voted against the formation of the NHS, including the second and third readings of the National Health Service Bill when it came before the House of Commons in 1946.

If the Tories weren't opposed to the formation of the NHS, why would they repeatedly vote against it?

You ask what, specifically, the Tories have done to harm the NHS but I think it's not really about what they have done and more to do with what they haven't done. And what they haven't done is very simple, they haven't invested in the NHS. They haven't provided the necessary resources and they haven't been prepared to pay decent wages to the most important resource - the doctors, dentists, nurses and other healthcare professionals.

As a result of this continued, decade after decade, underinvestment the NHS is seriously struggling. Waiting lists have grown as patient numbers increase and GP numbers fall. Medical school places have been cut. The ambulance service is also in crisis.

Meanwhile, as mentioned by others on this thread, private health companies have profited as various aspects of the NHS are either sold off or outsourced.

If you really believe that Conservative Party are champions of the NHS and value a free health service for all I'm gonna have to end the discussion here because I have no choice but to conclude that you are delusional, and as such continuing to discuss it with you is futile.
 
Returning to the point about the medical brain drain, you are always going to have shortages in areas, as well as countries, due to the idea that the grass is greener elsewhere.

You have to ask yourself how they staff inner city medical centres and hospitals when the same staff could move to the Cotswolds or Lake District and have a calmer, more idyllic life.

Why have some medical staff headed to Gaza and Ukraine with all the inherent risks of a war zone, as became crystal clear a couple of weeks ago?

Adam Kay's experiences, while traumatic, don't exactly match up with that, and he has a pretty cushy life as an author instead just slinging mud these days. It was clearly never a vocation for him.
 
GillsBluenose said:
Returning to the point about the medical brain drain, you are always going to have shortages in areas, as well as countries, due to the idea that the grass is greener elsewhere.

You have to ask yourself how they staff inner city medical centres and hospitals when the same staff could move to the Cotswolds or Lake District and have a calmer, more idyllic life.

Why have some medical staff headed to Gaza and Ukraine with all the inherent risks of a war zone, as became crystal clear a couple of weeks ago?

Adam Kay's experiences, while traumatic, don't exactly match up with that, and he has a pretty cushy life as an author instead just slinging mud these days. It was clearly never a vocation for him.
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One man's mud slinging is another man's whistle blowing I guess. I believe that it was a vocation for him until he couldn't take it any more.
 
Therealwaldo said:
I know this is obviously going round in circles but those of us who saw leaving as a mistake did respect the decision but we were mislead by leading voices on the Vote Leave side who asked “What would be bad about being like Norway and Switzerland”. People like me were happy to accept the vote on the expectation that the closeness of the vote would lead to some compromise along those lines. Of course we now know that was all lies. That’s what’s deepened the divisions and made people like me so angry and quite willing to bang on about it until the UK’s position is reversed.
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And you didn't notice the EU had zero interest in negotiating? They only cared about sending a signal that nobody leaves the EU without being punished.

UK couldn't do much if the other side were acting like a c***t.

And it also didn't help when Lib Dem politicians were actively informing the Europeans of UK Government plans. That's literally treason. I did say earlier the Left have always hated Britain.
 
GillsBluenose said:
Returning to the point about the medical brain drain, you are always going to have shortages in areas, as well as countries, due to the idea that the grass is greener elsewhere.

You have to ask yourself how they staff inner city medical centres and hospitals when the same staff could move to the Cotswolds or Lake District and have a calmer, more idyllic life.

Why have some medical staff headed to Gaza and Ukraine with all the inherent risks of a war zone, as became crystal clear a couple of weeks ago?

Adam Kay's experiences, while traumatic, don't exactly match up with that, and he has a pretty cushy life as an author instead just slinging mud these days. It was clearly never a vocation for him.
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Typically the best doctors start in London NHS hospitals because they're the most prestigious. Then they'll do private and NHS, then eventually just private.

But yes, you're correct they could swap London for a countryside role.
 
Buddha said:
Whilst Willink was certainly involved in the production of the Beveridge Report that outlined the urgent need for some kind of national health service free at the point of delivery, he always opposed the nationalisation of the existing private and voluntary infrastructure that was later to become the backbone of the NHS. He claimed that such nationalisation would, "destroy so much in this country that we value".

As I said above, the Tories continually voted against the formation of the NHS, including the second and third readings of the National Health Service Bill when it came before the House of Commons in 1946.

If the Tories weren't opposed to the formation of the NHS, why would they repeatedly vote against it?

You ask what, specifically, the Tories have done to harm the NHS but I think it's not really about what they have done and more to do with what they haven't done. And what they haven't done is very simple, they haven't invested in the NHS. They haven't provided the necessary resources and they haven't been prepared to pay decent wages to the most important resource - the doctors, dentists, nurses and other healthcare professionals.

As a result of this continued, decade after decade, underinvestment the NHS is seriously struggling. Waiting lists have grown as patient numbers increase and GP numbers fall. Medical school places have been cut. The ambulance service is also in crisis.

Meanwhile, as mentioned by others on this thread, private health companies have profited as various aspects of the NHS are either sold off or outsourced.

If you really believe that Conservative Party are champions of the NHS and value a free health service for all I'm gonna have to end the discussion here because I have no choice but to conclude that you are delusional, and as such continuing to discuss it with you is futile.
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First para: Semantics. He wrote a report suggesting a national health service. Who cares if he opposed nationalisation. He still supported a free national health service.

Second para... I'm trying to understand what the Tories have done to spite the NHS preferably recently, not in 1946.

Fourth para: Health budget increased every year between 2015 and 2022. You're scraping. Your hatred for the Tories is blinding from an objective perspective. Labour did more damage to the NHS through their uncontrolled immigration than Tories could ever do (although Tories never fixed the immigration).

I'm not saying they're champions of the NHS. I'm challenging you saying they hate it.
 
Buddha said:
Whilst Willink was certainly involved in the production of the Beveridge Report that outlined the urgent need for some kind of national health service free at the point of delivery, he always opposed the nationalisation of the existing private and voluntary infrastructure that was later to become the backbone of the NHS. He claimed that such nationalisation would, "destroy so much in this country that we value".

As I said above, the Tories continually voted against the formation of the NHS, including the second and third readings of the National Health Service Bill when it came before the House of Commons in 1946.

If the Tories weren't opposed to the formation of the NHS, why would they repeatedly vote against it?

You ask what, specifically, the Tories have done to harm the NHS but I think it's not really about what they have done and more to do with what they haven't done. And what they haven't done is very simple, they haven't invested in the NHS. They haven't provided the necessary resources and they haven't been prepared to pay decent wages to the most important resource - the doctors, dentists, nurses and other healthcare professionals.

As a result of this continued, decade after decade, underinvestment the NHS is seriously struggling. Waiting lists have grown as patient numbers increase and GP numbers fall. Medical school places have been cut. The ambulance service is also in crisis.

Meanwhile, as mentioned by others on this thread, private health companies have profited as various aspects of the NHS are either sold off or outsourced.

If you really believe that Conservative Party are champions of the NHS and value a free health service for all I'm gonna have to end the discussion here because I have no choice but to conclude that you are delusional, and as such continuing to discuss it with you is futile.
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I remember a Guardian report from last summer, in which Tony Blair advocated more outsourcing to private companies.
I believe the government have increased NHS spending most years, but it seems that more complex machinery & middle management have swallowed much of that.
 
Gills77 said:
First para: Semantics. He wrote a report suggesting a national health service. Who cares if he opposed nationalisation. He still supported a free national health service.

Second para... I'm trying to understand what the Tories have done to spite the NHS preferably recently, not in 1946.

Fourth para: Health budget increased every year between 2015 and 2022. You're scraping. Your hatred for the Tories is blinding from an objective perspective. Labour did more damage to the NHS through their uncontrolled immigration than Tories could ever do (although Tories never fixed the immigration).

I'm not saying they're champions of the NHS. I'm challenging you saying they hate it.
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We'll just have to agree to disagree because I very firmly believe that the Tories regard the NHS with both fear and loathing. Fear because they know how loved and respected it is by the vast majority of the public; loathing because it is socialistic and represents that which they instinctively oppose.
 
ARFUR CONNELL said:
I remember a Guardian report from last summer, in which Tony Blair advocated more outsourcing to private companies.
I believe the government have increased NHS spending most years, but it seems that more complex machinery & middle management have swallowed much of that.
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Yeah, well I was never a fan of Blair or New Labour.

And as I said earlier, I don't hold out too much hope of a Kier Starmer government improving things much.
 
Gills77 said:
And you didn't notice the EU had zero interest in negotiating? They only cared about sending a signal that nobody leaves the EU without being punished.

UK couldn't do much if the other side were acting like a c***t.

And it also didn't help when Lib Dem politicians were actively informing the Europeans of UK Government plans. That's literally treason. I did say earlier the Left have always hated Britain.
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What did you expect the EU to do when our government ministers were trying. to convince the UK electorate that we could have everything we wanted outside the EU it was going to be the easiest deal in the world.
If Scotland or Northern Ireland were to leave the union would you want them to have all the benefits of being members of the UK without paying a penny in tax?
 
chris who said:
What did you expect the EU to do when our government ministers were trying. to convince the UK electorate that we could have everything we wanted outside the EU it was going to be the easiest deal in the world.
If Scotland or Northern Ireland were to leave the union would you want them to have all the benefits of being members of the UK without paying a penny in tax?
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There was a confusing report of the news yesterday about the EU or one of the members (Spain?) offering some form of limited free movement arrangement with the UK, I think aimed towards students?

The news was coming through and the reporter seemed confused himself, but maybe the first sign of some thawing or relations and finally some pragmatism? EDIT - Found it:
www.theguardian.com

Brussels proposes return to pre-Brexit mobility for UK and EU young people

Commission to seek approval from leaders to start talks with UK on visa-free exchanges for 18- to 30-year-olds
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

You are right about Scotland, and possibly NI, but I think the bigger concern would be that they could still look for help from London if they hit unexpected financial hardship after independence. Sturgeon was pretty unequivocal about joining the EU in those circumstances which would invoke EU rules and restrictions on exporting to/importing from England which, in turn, would surely continue to be a one of their main customers. If that affects their trading position, will the EU finance them or bail them out?

As you quite rightly point out, they couldn't cherry pick any cooperation or assistance they might need in future from London.

Also, removing Scottish voters, most of who voted remain, would be likely to favour the Brexit camp if there was ever a second referendum in England.
 
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