O/T Covid-19 - Discussion for the duration of this crisis. | Page 103 | Vital Football

O/T Covid-19 - Discussion for the duration of this crisis.

paddyspur said:
Nick, have a read of this guy, he's a recently retired professor of pathology and a former NHS consultant pathologist. He gives his 10 reasons to end the lockdown, and this might be the kind of advice Boris is getting (and might have been getting the last 3-4 weeks) from various sources. Are we really experiencing a "virus killing crazy numbers of people"? What else are we experiencing, and what else will society likely experience if everyone stays indoors for the next 12 months and the stuff of life is not produced?

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/ten-reasons-to-end-the-lockdown-now
Click to expand...

I had a read and the lockdown does need evaluating. We do need to adjust it accordingly in a more targeted way. But that is complex and will need to be phased in. As for his first point, the number of deaths.....while its disturbing it's not the stat I look for. It's the infection rate and death rate of those infected that is more important to me, also how many die who are healthy and not in the at risk category which we dont know yet.
We dont have enough testing or the right testing to determine immunity. There are many things that have been done wrong or too late. But to risk a second spike by lifting the lockdown completely would be reckless.
 
Here's a recent BBC Newsnight slot on "Is the government really ‘following the science’?"

No conclusions here but raising the difficulties and likely inaccuracies of first modeling (no surprise there), and the need for the bodies with ethical and economic responsibility (government) to TAKE responsibility for interpreting the data.

From which i think one can join the dots quite easily, and surmise that the blame game behind the scenes is well underway.

Which as Ex would often say, is also a waste of time at this point because we need timely right action, not time and emotion getting consumed in politics and blame.

Good to see the BBC at last questioning compulsive reactions, but 6-8 weeks too late in my view. You start to see the media only questioning things when there is herd safety amongst the media to do so - or when they can't not.

There would have been no Watergate if two brave journalists at the Washington Post had had that attitude back in the early 70s! Then we never would have been able to say things like Covidgate or Sciencegate or Gatesgate!

 
Apparently six days ago Peter Hitchens said Boris Johnson has "created this terror... People are still convinced there is a bubonic plague which they will catch if they come within seven feet of somebody."

I'm not a fan of either of those two guys. Maybe this one should be doing the speeches!

 
This is unbelievable:

Discharging coronavirus patients into care homes is 'madness', Government told


Care homes cannot safely accept hospital patients suffering from coronavirus without risking the lives of residents, ministers were told on Wednesday.
Matt Hancock, the Health Secretary, said hospital patients who tested positive for Covid-19 would continue to be discharged into care homes despite growing evidence that the policy is fuelling outbreaks and deaths.
Charities and local authority leaders said the approach, designed to free up hospital beds, was "madness" because many homes do not have the resources to keep vulnerable and elderly residents safe.
It came with the Government facing growing criticism of the handling of the coronavirus crisis in care homes.
Health bosses insist coronavirus patients can be safely admitted to care homes as long as strict guidelines are maintained to prevent the virus spreading. If a safe care home cannot...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...virus-patients-care-homes-madness-government/
 
80deg16minW said:
This is unbelievable:

Discharging coronavirus patients into care homes is 'madness', Government told


Care homes cannot safely accept hospital patients suffering from coronavirus without risking the lives of residents, ministers were told on Wednesday.
Matt Hancock, the Health Secretary, said hospital patients who tested positive for Covid-19 would continue to be discharged into care homes despite growing evidence that the policy is fuelling outbreaks and deaths.
Charities and local authority leaders said the approach, designed to free up hospital beds, was "madness" because many homes do not have the resources to keep vulnerable and elderly residents safe.
It came with the Government facing growing criticism of the handling of the coronavirus crisis in care homes.
Health bosses insist coronavirus patients can be safely admitted to care homes as long as strict guidelines are maintained to prevent the virus spreading. If a safe care home cannot...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...virus-patients-care-homes-madness-government/
Click to expand...

I think Hancock may have lost it and there are rumours he could be facing criticism from within his party on his handling of the situation.
 
Last edited:
I just donated £30 to support Simon Dolan who is legally challenging the lockdown in the UK. Should he win each of us will still have the personal choice be able to choose to stay indoors full-time at the end of it.

https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/lockdownlegalchallenge/


Government asking for more time to respond to us:

Businessman Simon Dolan has accused Boris Johnson of “dragging his heels over the burning embers of the economy” after the Government said it needed more time to respond to his legal challenge.

My name is Simon, and together with a few other like-minded souls, we are launching a legal challenge against the UK Govt Lockdown.

We believe that the Govt has acted illegally and disproportionately over the COVID 19 lockdown and we are taking action.

By forcing people to stay at home, and forcing businesses to close, they are, we believe, in contravention of basic Human Rights offered under English Law, that of the right to enjoy your property peacefully.

We can't do this without you and urgently need your support. We're going up against the government, so please contribute to our legal action now and most importantly share this page with your friends, family and on social media.

The lockdown has and will lead to devastating economic impact (massive unemployment, tax increases, closure of businesses, reduced tax receipts etc) It has, and will lead to far more deaths from suicide, undiagnosed conditions, untreated conditions - indeed far more than would have been potentially saved by the lockdown.

What we wish to achieve in bringing this case, is simply the freedom of individuals - the freedom to visit friends, freedom to earn a living, to socialise, in essence, the freedom of choice. That, of course, includes the freedom to stay inside - should you choose.
 
paddyspur said:
Here's a recent BBC Newsnight slot on "Is the government really ‘following the science’?"

No conclusions here but raising the difficulties and likely inaccuracies of first modeling (no surprise there), and the need for the bodies with ethical and economic responsibility (government) to TAKE responsibility for interpreting the data.

From which i think one can join the dots quite easily, and surmise that the blame game behind the scenes is well underway.

Which as Ex would often say, is also a waste of time at this point because we need timely right action, not time and emotion getting consumed in politics and blame.

Good to see the BBC at last questioning compulsive reactions, but 6-8 weeks too late in my view. You start to see the media only questioning things when there is herd safety amongst the media to do so - or when they can't not.

There would have been no Watergate if two brave journalists at the Washington Post had had that attitude back in the early 70s! Then we never would have been able to say things like Covidgate or Sciencegate or Gatesgate!

Click to expand...




Thanks for that Paddy, as you say , that being on the BBC shows us sceptics are now getting a mainstream voice !

I watched that on Youtube, and as usual I always read the responses underneath the video.
I now don't believe for a minute that the vast majority of the population want this lunacy lockdown to continue which we are constantly being told, who did that poll, Neil Ferguson on one of his models haha.
 
paddyspur said:
I just donated £30 to support Simon Dolan who is legally challenging the lockdown in the UK. Should he win each of us will still have the personal choice be able to choose to stay indoors full-time at the end of it.

https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/lockdownlegalchallenge/


Government asking for more time to respond to us:

Businessman Simon Dolan has accused Boris Johnson of “dragging his heels over the burning embers of the economy” after the Government said it needed more time to respond to his legal challenge.

My name is Simon, and together with a few other like-minded souls, we are launching a legal challenge against the UK Govt Lockdown.

We believe that the Govt has acted illegally and disproportionately over the COVID 19 lockdown and we are taking action.

By forcing people to stay at home, and forcing businesses to close, they are, we believe, in contravention of basic Human Rights offered under English Law, that of the right to enjoy your property peacefully.

We can't do this without you and urgently need your support. We're going up against the government, so please contribute to our legal action now and most importantly share this page with your friends, family and on social media.

The lockdown has and will lead to devastating economic impact (massive unemployment, tax increases, closure of businesses, reduced tax receipts etc) It has, and will lead to far more deaths from suicide, undiagnosed conditions, untreated conditions - indeed far more than would have been potentially saved by the lockdown.

What we wish to achieve in bringing this case, is simply the freedom of individuals - the freedom to visit friends, freedom to earn a living, to socialise, in essence, the freedom of choice. That, of course, includes the freedom to stay inside - should you choose.
Click to expand...



The Mrs has sent our donation, I've sent the link to my lad who will donate as well :thumbup:
 
Big Chiv said:
Thanks for that Paddy, as you say , that being on the BBC shows us sceptics are now getting a mainstream voice !

I watched that on Youtube, and as usual I always read the responses underneath the video.
I now don't believe for a minute that the vast majority of the population want this lunacy lockdown to continue which we are constantly being told, who did that poll, Neil Ferguson on one of his models haha.
Click to expand...
Sceptic - "an ancient or modern philosopher who denies the possibility of knowledge, or even rational belief, in some sphere"

i don't even count myself as a sceptic Chiv! (or a philosopher for that matter)... i've tried to stay on course in life by having courage at key times, reserving the right to think for myself and listen to hunch rather than populist horse shit. i get the establishment-type mindset and its set of assumptions, fears and no-go areas ('dare not discuss openly') very well.

In 2003 i wrote twice to Tony Blair (once through Greenpeace and once direct to the Labour Government) offering to professionally sit down with him to discuss and help him through his obvious moral struggle with not wanting war, whilst feeling the need to wage war and kill people and take down a sovereign leader without a supporting UN resolution, in order to bring peace and order and security to the Iraqi people, all whilst basing the foundation for his internal public hand-wringing and turmoil on scant and eventually nil evidence of WMD.

i didn't get a reply. glad i wrote though, so i know i tried. i would have given him as much time as he needed. there we see a man of total horse shit, and the deceptive face of so much of this kind of establishment manoeuvring.

the sceptic these days is the one that is not allowing open discussion and debate because they don't trust following the rationality of what is the best science and data for the world to be guided by going forwards, it's those that close down debate, won't share the logic of their position in a respectful manner, but rely on guilting and shaming and ridiculing anyone who thinks outside of their programs or agenda, who doesn't clap the NHS as they ought or who doesn't share tribal fears of the bogeyman - all to avoid open and transparent discussion. it's sets us up for living on the set of Eastenders.

emphasis on discuss, debate, guided, share.
 
paddyspur said:
I just donated £30 to support Simon Dolan who is legally challenging the lockdown in the UK. Should he win each of us will still have the personal choice be able to choose to stay indoors full-time at the end of it.

https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/lockdownlegalchallenge/


Government asking for more time to respond to us:

Businessman Simon Dolan has accused Boris Johnson of “dragging his heels over the burning embers of the economy” after the Government said it needed more time to respond to his legal challenge.

My name is Simon, and together with a few other like-minded souls, we are launching a legal challenge against the UK Govt Lockdown.

We believe that the Govt has acted illegally and disproportionately over the COVID 19 lockdown and we are taking action.

By forcing people to stay at home, and forcing businesses to close, they are, we believe, in contravention of basic Human Rights offered under English Law, that of the right to enjoy your property peacefully.

We can't do this without you and urgently need your support. We're going up against the government, so please contribute to our legal action now and most importantly share this page with your friends, family and on social media.

The lockdown has and will lead to devastating economic impact (massive unemployment, tax increases, closure of businesses, reduced tax receipts etc) It has, and will lead to far more deaths from suicide, undiagnosed conditions, untreated conditions - indeed far more than would have been potentially saved by the lockdown.

What we wish to achieve in bringing this case, is simply the freedom of individuals - the freedom to visit friends, freedom to earn a living, to socialise, in essence, the freedom of choice. That, of course, includes the freedom to stay inside - should you choose.
Click to expand...

I agree about the business closing part. So many people haven't had any help whatsoever and that is a frigging disgrace.
 
Watching some of Boris’s press conference...Vallance presenting stats which are complete rubbish....they do not know what the R value is (they are just estimating) just as they do not know the real infection rate and when questioned on that he kept referring to a figure of 130,000 which is just the figure from their testing of largely essential workers and hospital cases while admitting the average from anti body testing was about 4% which is around 2.6 million if projected onto the uk population and is probably a gross underestimate due to the very low level of antibody testing.

This is like being a policeman when he knows a guy is guilty of a crime, can prove it but the Crown Prosecution Service won’t take the case...what they are doing is criminal.
 
And I thought Boris came across as being half the person he portrayed before he got the virus ...he seemed all over the place....repetitive and lacking authority.
 
I saw Sir David King on Newsnight last night, the previous Chief Scientific Officer who showed how the academic community is approaching giving advice to the government...

Asked if the new advice was sensible he said no....Why he was asked....well because the government didn’t implement my recommendations on pandemic control that I gave them 6 years ago which said that we needed contact tracking in place from the start and to lift restrictions before that is available is irresponsible.

So, nothing to do with the science associated with the current immunity levels in the population or any of the scientific analysis necessary to inform strategy, just academic anger that his ideas hadn’t been followed.
 
10Hoddle said:
Sorry all UK residents. Your leader is proving grossly incompetent.

To say you can go back to work, without advising exactly "when" and under what terms proves he is way out of his depth.

He can't answer the hard questions.

He is not what you need at the helm to get you all through this.
Click to expand...

Sunday's speech was an outline indication of the way forward. It was followed up with a 50 page detailed document and a 6 page one for public reading. We have daily briefings with questions. The Monday briefing was held by Boris flanked by the 2 senior science and medical experts to answer the " hard questions ".
Boris stressed that this is a slow and measured response and that work places had to be safe and for workers to communicate with their employers on potential returns to work.
A few weeks ago Boris was close to death and may not be back to full strength yet. Mistakes have been made for sure and I am critical of them. Boris has to rely on the ministers around him to get through this to some extent. Churchill was a great leader during the War, he was not so good economically. Leaders have their strengths and weaknesses.
Our first phase response was straight forward...Stay at home to protect the NHS and save lives. The next phase is going to be more complex and less clear cut as we attempt to come come out of lockdown.
 
Some of it is nonsensical though nick. Only allowed to meet 1 person not from your household but allowed to sunbathe where you could be 2m from 100s of others. I don't envy the politicians having to make decisions with contradictory information and a restless public, but the new policies aren't clear enough. I've seen many say the criticisms are ridiculous and that the messages aren't confusing - people are being wilfully naive and they just require some common sense... But Raab and another MP have had to retract statements about what's allowed because even they didn't have it 100% right.

A friend and his wife got covid a few weeks back, both mid 30s. He told me they didn't go to hospital but had it for weeks and felt worse than they ever have through illness by a large distance.

Just read a blog on bmj of a similar account. This shows that 2 weeks isn't long enough to get over it in many cases. Not sure if he'd have still been contagious a few weeks in though but sounds pretty rough

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2020/05/0...&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork
 
freundorfoe said:
Some of it is nonsensical though nick. Only allowed to meet 1 person not from your household but allowed to sunbathe where you could be 2m from 100s of others. I don't envy the politicians having to make decisions with contradictory information and a restless public, but the new policies aren't clear enough. I've seen many say the criticisms are ridiculous and that the messages aren't confusing - people are being wilfully naive and they just require some common sense... But Raab and another MP have had to retract statements about what's allowed because even they didn't have it 100% right.

A friend and his wife got covid a few weeks back, both mid 30s. He told me they didn't go to hospital but had it for weeks and felt worse than they ever have through illness by a large distance.

Just read a blog on bmj of a similar account. This shows that 2 weeks isn't long enough to get over it in many cases. Not sure if he'd have still been contagious a few weeks in though but sounds pretty rough

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2020/05/0...&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork
Click to expand...

I agree the interpretation of the slight relaxation needs getting used to. Being outside is less dangerous than indoor environments. Mixing with your own household outside does make sense, rather than risking infecting another household. This gradual change will continue to be rolled out and the public has to get used to seeking how it affects them each time.
The political point scoring is distasteful to me when lives are at stake.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.