Like A Shark | Vital Football

Like A Shark

VitalFootballAdmin

VitalFootballAdmin

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I read somewhere that sharks have to keep moving their entire lives, stop swimming and they die.


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Jod sent us the following:

I read somewhere that sharks have to keep moving their entire lives, stop swimming and they die.

I suspect we are in much the same position for the next 10 years when it comes to player development. I say 10 years because that's how long it took Arsenal after they built the Emirates before it started making money instead of costing money in loan repayments. Until then we are in the situation where we must keep doing what we have been doing, develop the players we can't afford to buy ready-made.

You still get people moaning about how we need to spend more money. In a world where three Premier League clubs spent more on wages last year than our entire income they don't of course explain where the money is coming from. It’s just a comfortable fantasy, easier to deal with than reality. In the real world it comes down to player development. It’s not just quality, it’s also numbers.

To explain that lets first look at Bentaleb, Mason, Livermore and Carroll.

The figures I've read suggest Bentaleb was sold for £16m, Mason £13m, Livermore £6.5m and Carroll £4.5m. That's £40m for four players who ultimately didn't make the grade. If even your rejects are bringing in cash it certainly helps balance the books. The numbers game is also important in terms of dealing with players leaving. When Bale left there was panic. The team was far too dependent on one man. In their attempts to replace the irreplaceable the club wasted the cash windfall they had been given. We are in a much better situation now, the loss of one player wouldn't have the same impact no matter who it was. But the question of players coming through still applies.

Let’s look at the Walker situation.

If he leaves we still have Tripper so it’s not panic stations. But you do need two players for each position. So it comes down to the manager's view of Walker-Peters. Do you bring in a right back even if it’s not someone you really rate but is available or do you slot Walker-Peters in as second choice behind Trippier and bank Kyle Walker's transfer fee until someone becomes available you actually want to buy ?

If you have a constant stream of talent coming through, who can be eased into the squad it takes the pressure off? The club can control the movement of players rather than reacting to events as they did with Bale. It’s a big ask to keep producing players but we do have one advantage. You can see it if you compare Alli and Chelsea's Ruben Loftus-Cheek. Both 21 year old highly rated midfield players. Alli has played 140 plus games for Mk Dons and Spurs and 19 senior games for England. Loftus-Cheek has just 30 odd appearances for Chelsea, most as a substitute.

Despite an amazing record in youth competitions Chelsea is where English talent goes to die, Spurs are where you go if you want a career in the game. That's now increasingly the perception, it will make it easier to sign the most promising youngsters in the next few years even where other clubs offer greater financial!
 
Levy has already said building the new stadium won't affect us spending money. We have a separate fund for that.

Nobody is expecting Pogba or Bale to join. However players like Mane should have been on our list last summer.

Bringing through youngsters is a good strategy but only if they are good enough. So far out of our current crop only Winks looks ready. CCV, KWP, Onomah, Harrison are nowhere near ready for the level we are playing at the moment.
 
A reason why Chelsea do well in the youth / Acadey / U21 leagues is that they have so much young talent which never gets promoted to the senior ranks, so stays in age group and dominates. I don't think it means they produce better talent because, in contrast, our better prospects tend to play in higher age groups than actual age and the really good ones get moved to the senior ranks where they don't necessarily get game time but are removed from the U21 league.

That said we hear a lot of stuff about how we are producing lots of real talent from the Academy (it has been going a very long time) which is simply contradicted by the very small number of graduates good enough to even play for teams in the bottom half of the PL.

Yes it is true that it has produced many tens of millions of pounds in income from sales, but there is a certain amount of delusion about how good it is. I well recall a few years ago many ITK's saying that Tommy Carroll was going to be awesome. He wasn't, but we were told it didn't matter because Alex Pritchard was so much better and he was the 'one'. He wasn't either and now we have the same being said about Marcus Edwards.

No one expects it to produce a top quality player every year, but I am disappointed at the way it appears to come off the rails at the critical time. I believe that there is something crucial missing between when the top Academy players leave it and when they go into the senior squads where progress can halt.
 
Bald Archie - 22/6/2017 20:19

A reason why Chelsea do well in the youth / Acadey / U21 leagues is that they have so much young talent which never gets promoted to the senior ranks, so stays in age group and dominates. I don't think it means they produce better talent because, in contrast, our better prospects tend to play in higher age groups than actual age and the really good ones get moved to the senior ranks where they don't necessarily get game time but are removed from the U21 league.

That said we hear a lot of stuff about how we are producing lots of real talent from the Academy (it has been going a very long time) which is simply contradicted by the very small number of graduates good enough to even play for teams in the bottom half of the PL.

Yes it is true that it has produced many tens of millions of pounds in income from sales, but there is a certain amount of delusion about how good it is. I well recall a few years ago many ITK's saying that Tommy Carroll was going to be awesome. He wasn't, but we were told it didn't matter because Alex Pritchard was so much better and he was the 'one'. He wasn't either and now we have the same being said about Marcus Edwards.

No one expects it to produce a top quality player every year, but I am disappointed at the way it appears to come off the rails at the critical time. I believe that there is something crucial missing between when the top Academy players leave it and when they go into the senior squads where progress can halt.
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The actual average rate per club for producing a Premier league player from an academy since 2003 is around 1:60..that's across the whole of /all clubs that have been in the premier league since that time. That jumps to around 1:120 for the top six clubs. (This is directly from a coaches briefing at St.Georges in 2015).

It's not difficult to see that in recent years we've produced better than the average. So clearly in this respect we are over-achieving, even if it still doesn't reach the fantasy of all PL academy graduates being of PL football quality (something that Academy coaches will laugh themselves silly at even the merest suggestion of).

So you may well be 'disappointed' but that's probably because once again you have poor knowledge of the attrition rate and expectations that NO premier league club is or probably ever will be producing PL players at.

The step up from academy/championship to PL football is huge and shouldn't be under estimated or down-played; young players falter or even fail for a myriad of reasons.
 
Spursex - 23/6/2017 07:59

Bald Archie - 22/6/2017 20:19

A reason why Chelsea do well in the youth / Acadey / U21 leagues is that they have so much young talent which never gets promoted to the senior ranks, so stays in age group and dominates. I don't think it means they produce better talent because, in contrast, our better prospects tend to play in higher age groups than actual age and the really good ones get moved to the senior ranks where they don't necessarily get game time but are removed from the U21 league.

That said we hear a lot of stuff about how we are producing lots of real talent from the Academy (it has been going a very long time) which is simply contradicted by the very small number of graduates good enough to even play for teams in the bottom half of the PL.

Yes it is true that it has produced many tens of millions of pounds in income from sales, but there is a certain amount of delusion about how good it is. I well recall a few years ago many ITK's saying that Tommy Carroll was going to be awesome. He wasn't, but we were told it didn't matter because Alex Pritchard was so much better and he was the 'one'. He wasn't either and now we have the same being said about Marcus Edwards.

No one expects it to produce a top quality player every year, but I am disappointed at the way it appears to come off the rails at the critical time. I believe that there is something crucial missing between when the top Academy players leave it and when they go into the senior squads where progress can halt.
Click to expand...

The actual average rate per club for producing a Premier league player from an academy since 2003 is around 1:60..that's across the whole of /all clubs that have been in the premier league since that time. That jumps to around 1:120 for the top six clubs. (This is directly from a coaches briefing at St.Georges in 2015).

It's not difficult to see that in recent years we've produced better than the average. So clearly in this respect we are over-achieving, even if it still doesn't reach the fantasy of all PL academy graduates being of PL football quality (something that Academy coaches will laugh themselves silly at even the merest suggestion of).

So you may well be 'disappointed' but that's probably because once again you have poor knowledge of the attrition rate and expectations that NO premier league club is or probably ever will be producing PL players at.

The step up from academy/championship to PL football is huge and shouldn't be under estimated or down-played; young players falter or even fail for a myriad of reasons.
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Thanks for that response. I was fully convinced that you would reply, and that your reply would contain some sort of condescending put down to me.

Our Academy is funded to a larger degree than many other top 6 clubs, with the deliberate aim of the owners to produce talent - as it is a part of their business model I would imagine that the aim is to do better than the average.
The more it is 'bigged' up, the greater a target it becomes.

My disappointment is fueled by deluded ITK's who confidently state that we have superstars on the production line, yet which don't materialise.
 
I respond because you continuously pontificate on matters that you see entirely subjectively with no reference to the facts - or even an acknowledgement that they exist.

Your negativity on all aspects of the club projects you as being the most reluctant 'supporter' the club has ever day, I wouldn't mind if you were ever accurate in your analysis, but you're not.

The chip on your shoulder towards the club and it's efforts clouds absolutely any objectivity.
 
What level is considered a success for a player coming out of an academy ?

Not from a financial point of view necessarily.

I guess as an individual you shoot for the stars but as we have seen it's only the cream that makes it big.
 
Spursex - 23/6/2017 18:55

I respond because you continuously pontificate on matters that you see entirely subjectively with no reference to the facts - or even an acknowledgement that they exist.

Your negativity on all aspects of the club projects you as being the most reluctant 'supporter' the club has ever day, I wouldn't mind if you were ever accurate in your analysis, but you're not.

The chip on your shoulder towards the club and it's efforts clouds absolutely any objectivity.
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I bow to your knowledge of pontification as, on all the forums (not only football) I post on, there is no one stuck further up their own bottom than you.

Btw, as you like to deal in 'facts' saying 'I wouldn't mind if you were ever accurate in your analysis, but you're not.' is unlikley to be proveable.

:14:
 
I think our academy produces a lot of talented players. When you consider that there are probably only 500 PL players in the league (25x20) approximately and look around and see how many of our academy players are playing it's quite amazing. I'm not at all disturbed by the 1 or 2 players a year average. After all there's only 500 places to apply for. It therefore is pretty obvious that to get into that select group a player would have to be of significantly high talent level, otherwise you end up in the lower leagues or in the real world of us who work for a living.
 
While we are short on first teamers who came through all the ranks like Kane, players like him and Alli and Bale who got their chance incredibly young and flourished into some of the best in their roles the world over, will only add to our image as a club who gives youth a chance and won't let age hold back talent. This can only serve to make us more attractive club to join for players of all youth levels, and will also encourage the club to continue emphasising youth production.
 
Archie, that's why I devote very little of my time to this forum these days.

You made some very good points, and like blood in the water, the shark of Spursex pounces with his condescending remarks. For someone who often waves his resume around and shouts of his own success, he is horribly tactless.

We're all meant to be friends on here with a common goal and interest. But too many see it as a platform to beat their own chest.

pull yourself into line Spursex and treat people as equals. :13:
 
Real Deal - 24/6/2017 16:34

If EX was an ice cream he would lick himself to death. ;-)
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Lol. That is a fact, and a very nice re-use of Sherwoods remark :)

10Hoddle - 26/6/2017 22:53

Archie, that's why I devote very little of my time to this forum these days.

You made some very good points, and like blood in the water, the shark of Spursex pounces with his condescending remarks. For someone who often waves his resume around and shouts of his own success, he is horribly tactless.

We're all meant to be friends on here with a common goal and interest. But too many see it as a platform to beat their own chest.

pull yourself into line Spursex and treat people as equals. :13:
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Totally agree Hoddle.

He has this unappealing trait of thinking his posts / discussions are on a super-cerebal level, and that not being part of his favoured little clique who discuss things in his way, marks a poster down as an unthinking moron.

I don't blame you for not posting much as a result. He took a break for a while, and the forums were quite nice.
 
Nick Real Deal - 27/6/2017 20:31

Still no answer on my question....what is considered a success out of an academy ? Does it have to be PL ?
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Selling the player for more money than it cost you to develop the player.

And finding the occasional first team player.
 
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