Calvin Plummer
Vital Football Legend
What the fuck have banks got to do with anything? Immorality by someone else doesn't justify your own lol
Letter to 11 clubs (including Forest) about gambling ads
- Thread starter weejockmcplop
- Start date
What the fuck have banks got to do with anything? Immorality by someone else doesn't justify your own lol
mao tse tung
Vital Champions League
The mere mention of immorality is always guaranteed to bring the sanctimonious crawling out from under their rocks.
Are their any limits to the acts of kindness these good samaritan's insist on bestowing on the rest of society?
People preaching to others not to smoke or drink when they do so them selves, and now we have an organisation who run the biggest numbers racket in the Country deciding what form of gambling is acceptable and what is not.
The National Lottery can spend their ill gotten gains on sport and good causes but Bookmakers cant sponsor a Football team; hypocrisy at its finest.
Its not as though these morally superior beings have an actual dislike of the vices they preach against; its talking down to the little people that interests them the most.
weejockmcplop
Vital Champions League
This was a letter written by former gambling addicts and people personally affected by the issue (as per the first post). But sure, whatever you say.
Its not really about morality or any individual's decisions. Its about the massive amount of harm that gambling addiction does, and its about the way gambling advertising specifically caters only to addicts.
They don't give a shit about anyone else. They target their ads at addicts because addicts spend all their money.
That's why the volume of gambling ads is so huge. They want it to feel like there's no escaping the inevitable slide back into gambling for addicts.
I don't really have a problem with gambling companies sponsoring football teams, its the way its done, the pure excess of adverts the tailoring every little part of the ad to the chemical systems that form addictions.
When the Lottery make most of their money from a few people buying hundreds of thousands of tickets, come back to me with the comparison.
Calvin Plummer
Vital Football Legend
All white noise designed to distract. The proliferation of gambling adverts is detrimental to many people, not just the addicts but those that suffer tangentially.
How about instead of pointing fingers elsewhere you put forward a coherent argument as to why the gambling industry that preys on the weak should be allowed to run unchecked?
forestfire_59
Vital 1st Team Regular
When you view gambling as a harmless bit of fun, then there isn't a problem. When you view it as an addiction it is a sickness, and it might nanny statism, but sometimes you have to protect people from themselves. In that respect its no different to smoking or alcoholism. When I was younger my personal addiction was one arm bandits, where the bright lights buzzers and bells drew you in and kept you in.
Most of us don't have a problem, we can have a couple of pints, or a couple of quid on a dodgy nag. However when the addicted lose and lose big, lives are shattered spouses get battered and livelihoods are lost. Controls have to be put in place to protect people who have no control.
Pope John XXIII
Vital Football Legend
The problem with addiction is that no one who doesn't suffer from it can understand it.
I suspect most people are susceptible to some addiction or another. But if you aren't addicted, you can't understand how others can be.
I look at alcohol. I remember seeing a book about how to do dry January in a shop once. It was pretty thick and the whole thing made it look like running a marathon a day for a month. I didn't get it. Most years I do dry January by accident. I once did a year without drinking alcohol without even thinking about it or intending to.
People say to the overweight "just eat less". But if you have an addiction to food it isn't as fucking simple as that.
It's easy for people to say "just stop gambling". But if you can't understand the compulsion then you shouldn't even be trying to offer the advice..
Absolutely the same for any addiction; smoking, sex, porn, or Fabergé eggs.
One thing we can do is limit how likely it is that people will get into some of these. Sex and food isn't all that easy, but you can make a difference with young people by not advertising alcohol, faghs or betting.
The knowledge some 17 and 18 year olds have about gambling is quite worrying. In fairness, my experience is that it isn't the betting industry (honestly, hardly any kids I teach now seem to watch or follow football) but online poker and casino games.
But the advertising of sports betting is surely an entry point for other going adults. All the "in play" stuff looks so easy. I've known quite a few professionals who budgeted quite decent monthly sums on betting
I suspect most people are susceptible to some addiction or another. But if you aren't addicted, you can't understand how others can be.
I look at alcohol. I remember seeing a book about how to do dry January in a shop once. It was pretty thick and the whole thing made it look like running a marathon a day for a month. I didn't get it. Most years I do dry January by accident. I once did a year without drinking alcohol without even thinking about it or intending to.
People say to the overweight "just eat less". But if you have an addiction to food it isn't as fucking simple as that.
It's easy for people to say "just stop gambling". But if you can't understand the compulsion then you shouldn't even be trying to offer the advice..
Absolutely the same for any addiction; smoking, sex, porn, or Fabergé eggs.
One thing we can do is limit how likely it is that people will get into some of these. Sex and food isn't all that easy, but you can make a difference with young people by not advertising alcohol, faghs or betting.
The knowledge some 17 and 18 year olds have about gambling is quite worrying. In fairness, my experience is that it isn't the betting industry (honestly, hardly any kids I teach now seem to watch or follow football) but online poker and casino games.
But the advertising of sports betting is surely an entry point for other going adults. All the "in play" stuff looks so easy. I've known quite a few professionals who budgeted quite decent monthly sums on betting
radfordinlondon
Vital Football Legend
The real question is would eliminating sponsorship from gambling impact on the issue of problem gamblers?
The answer is obviously, marginal at best, as well as being difficult to measure and demonstrate an effect.
Tobacco has had all sorts of disincentives but people still smoke.
The only way to protect problem gamblers, like smokers, would be to ban it. Noboady supports that because it is unfair to stop millions who have no problems fun with the hundreds who have an issue.
Sounds like a good idea when you first hear it but when you think a bit deeper about how a ban would work (or not), i think the policy is less useful. Tbf atm, all of the betting and drink ads all have those stop if it is going wrong for you. Perhaps a better policy is to make betting firms pay more for support services for those addicted?
Pope John XXIII
Vital Football Legend
It won't make any difference to problem gamblers now, but it might make the next generation of problem gamblers smaller
radfordinlondon
Vital Football Legend
You make an excellent point about how a problem is viewed, largely determines what type of solution is developed.
However, the last paragraph is the enduring question of welfare provision- how far do u go to protect individuals from themselves and where is the line that says individuals must take some responsibility for themselves? There is no right answer here, just sketching out the dimensions of this discussion.
radfordinlondon
Vital Football Legend
As you say, stopping millions of legitimate enjoyment on the basis of might is not ideal, especially when we could tackle the issue in other ways by, say, the provision of more support services for problem gamblers.
Pope John XXIII
Vital Football Legend
There is no reason why stopping advertising should curtail legitimate enjoyment though. It will just cause fewer young people to ever get into it. The ban on cigarette advertising has surely had a dramatic effect.
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weejockmcplop
Vital Champions League
I disagree with this completely tbh.
Gambling addicts are triggered by the simple act of being advertised to. That's the whole point of the advertising, why its so in your face and extreme all the time. That's why having 4 bookies on a high street is better than one. Because the addict can walk past one shop probably, but by the time they get to the fourth all they are thinking about is gambling so they go spend all their money. It works the same way with advertising.
Social media makes this much, much worse.
How is a problem gambler supposed to watch the footy on Sky without gambling? It can't be done.
All I would ask for is limits on advertising (as well as limits on the amount of bookies per square foot but that's a different issue). I don't think anyone would ask for gambling to be banned - or at least most people wouldn't.
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in_the_top_one
Vital Football Legend
Absolutely.
Nobody is talking about banning gambling.
The biggest change in smoking in the UK coincided with the ban on TV advertising.
https://scienceblog.cancerresearchuk.org/2017/05/19/this-is-the-end-of-tobacco-advertising/
Redbrigade
Vital Youth Team
Betting firms should be banned from offering free bets, or the monetary inducements that get you hooked in the first place.
mao tse tung
Vital Champions League
There are a lot of things wrong with the Gambling Industry; they way they advertise does not come close to being in the top 10.
You obviously accept the premise that gambling addicts, if it is actually an addiction, are heavily influenced by advertising campaigns; I dont.
There is just as much of a chance that they are influenced by the game being televised in the first place, or by programmes like Football Focus which promote the game; people with gambling issues look for ANY opportunity to bet, they do not need a half time advert.
Then there is the laughable accusation that the advertising attracts and influences new custom in the form of the young and impressionable; the vast majority of people who start to gamble do so under the "guidance" of relatives, people from their own families, who, in many instances, get kids hooked on gambling by placing bets for them when they are not old enough to do so themselves.
The people who started this campaign would be better served by addressing the real root causes and cease with the bogus "it wasnt me guv, it was those bastards who made me do it" routine.
And if that sounds unsympathetic its because I do not believe in papering over the cracks.
How many drug addicts are there in the Country, and how many of those were influenced or persuaded to start main lining by an advertising campaign?
in_the_top_one
Vital Football Legend
I can't follow your logic here, mao.
If you think advertising doesn't tempt people into gambling then, a) why do they advertise, and, b) what difference would it make if the adverts were banned?
To take your drug addict point, let's consider smoking. The data suggest that many current smokers (those old enough) were tempted into smoking by the cool lifestyle offered by advertising. When advertising stopped, fewer people got into the addictive drug. Why do you think this would be different for gambling?
There is currently no widespread national advertising for harder drugs and also they are illegal. lf there were adverts in every break about the fun of cocaine or spice then usage might increase. That's what advertising does.
mao tse tung
Vital Champions League
Really!
Well it just goes to show how fucking deluded you are.
RBS engage in CFD gambling, the worst kind of gambling ever licenced.
Not only can you deposit funds with a credit card, something that has been banned at the Bookmakers, but you can leverage that bet, meaning you only have to have sufficient funds in your account to cover any margin call.
The actual losses can be horrific and have consequences far, far worse than "spaffing a weeks wages on a highly unlikely accumulator"
The fact that you mention that kind of betting just goes to show that you are not even close to understanding the nature of the problem.
Problem gamblers are highly unlikely to go anywhere near highly speculative accumulators; they start off with a losing bet and then have another, and another trying to win back what they have lost, and before they know it they are 15 or 20 bets down as losing run.
I know some people who spaff a percentage of their wages every week gambling but do not get their hands dirty placing bets themselves; they pay exorbitant administration and management fees to get people to place the bets on their behalf, they are called Pension Funds.
And because those people get some kind of return on their money they think they are on to a good thing; the only people on to a good thing are the people who collect the admin and management charges, all of the others are mug punters.
in_the_top_one
Vital Football Legend
Fucking deluded? This topic really seems to have touched a nerve.
Are you seriously making an equivalence at the user end between savers investing in a pension with those with a gambling problem?
Are you seriously making an equivalence at the user end between savers investing in a pension with those with a gambling problem?
weejockmcplop
Vital Champions League
I have never read such utter nonsense in my life. You're completely wrong about almost everything in this post.
Firstly, your whole 'if it is an addiction' thing. It is. Neurological studies have proved that it is without any doubt at all. That might offend your sensibility, but its a fact, so trying to sow doubt on it makes it seem as though you have an agenda.
https://www.brainfacts.org/diseases-and-disorders/addiction/2015/gambling-addiction-and-the-brain#:~:text=The evidence indicates that gambling,the University of British Columbia.
Recently, scientists and mental health professionals decided to classify problem gambling as a behavioral addiction, the first of its kind, putting it in a category of disorders that also includes substance abuse. The reason for this change comes from neuroscience research, which has shown that gambling addicts have a lot in common with drug and alcohol addicts, including changes in behavior and brain activity.
A Behavioral Addiction
Gambling disorder refers to the uncontrollable urge to gamble, despite serious personal consequences. Problem gambling can impact a person's interpersonal relationships, financial situation, and physical and mental health. Yet it has only recently been recognized as an addiction.
Problem gambling was first classified as a psychiatric disorder in 1980. In the third edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, the American Psychiatric Association's guide to psychiatric disorders, the condition was termed "pathological gambling" and classified as an impulse control disorder, alongside disorders like kleptomania and pyromania. In 2013, it was renamed "gambling disorder" and moved to the Substance-Related and Addictive Disorders category, which includes alcohol and drug addictions.
The decision to move gambling disorder alongside substance use disorders reflects a new understanding of the underlying commonalities between gambling and other addictions. There is a growing body of neuroscience and psychology research suggesting problem gambling is similar to drug addiction.
Many of the diagnostic criteria for gambling disorder share features with those for drug dependence, such as tolerance, withdrawal, repeated unsuccessful attempts to cut back or quit, and major interference in one's life. Problem gamblers also report cravings and highs in response to gambling.
"People will get inured to the high of gambling at a certain point and need to gamble with bigger bets and riskier betting options," says Jon Grant, who studies addiction at the University of Chicago. "When people try to stop, they go through withdrawal, with insomnia, agitation, irritability, and a feeling of being ill at ease, similar to what we see in some substance abuse disorders."
Problem gambling also runs in families, alongside other addictions. "If you have family members with alcohol use disorders, you're at increased risk for gambling disorder," says Nancy Petry, who studies addictive disorders at the University of Connecticut and served on the committee that led the reclassification of problem gambling as a behavioral addiction.
There may be some common genetic or brain differences in people who are more inclined to develop addictions, Petry says. For example, research shows that problem gamblers and drug addicts share many of the same genetic predispositions for impulsivity and reward-seeking behaviors.
This Is Your Brain on Gambling
Much of the research that supports classifying gambling disorder with other addictions comes from brain imaging studies and neurochemical tests. These have revealed commonalities in the way that gambling and drugs of abuse act on the brain, and the way the brains of addicts respond to such cues. The evidence indicates that gambling activates the brain's reward system in much the same way that a drug does.
"Across many studies, the same brain areas come up time and time again — the ventral striatum and the prefrontal cortex," says Luke Clark, a psychologist at the University of British Columbia.
The ventral striatum, located deep inside the brain, has been termed the brain's reward center, and it's been implicated in reward processing as well as substance abuse.
When people with gambling disorder watch gambling videos or participate in simulated gambling while their brains are being scanned, scientists can see changes in blood flow in specific brain areas, indicating which areas are more active. In one study, both problem gamblers and cocaine addicts watched videos related to their addictions while in a functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) scanner. Both groups showed diminished activation in the ventral striatum compared to healthy control participants. Problem gamblers also showed less ventral striatum activity during simulated gambling games and during the anticipation of monetary rewards than did people without gambling problems.
A Behavioral Addiction
Gambling disorder refers to the uncontrollable urge to gamble, despite serious personal consequences. Problem gambling can impact a person's interpersonal relationships, financial situation, and physical and mental health. Yet it has only recently been recognized as an addiction.
Problem gambling was first classified as a psychiatric disorder in 1980. In the third edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, the American Psychiatric Association's guide to psychiatric disorders, the condition was termed "pathological gambling" and classified as an impulse control disorder, alongside disorders like kleptomania and pyromania. In 2013, it was renamed "gambling disorder" and moved to the Substance-Related and Addictive Disorders category, which includes alcohol and drug addictions.
The decision to move gambling disorder alongside substance use disorders reflects a new understanding of the underlying commonalities between gambling and other addictions. There is a growing body of neuroscience and psychology research suggesting problem gambling is similar to drug addiction.
Many of the diagnostic criteria for gambling disorder share features with those for drug dependence, such as tolerance, withdrawal, repeated unsuccessful attempts to cut back or quit, and major interference in one's life. Problem gamblers also report cravings and highs in response to gambling.
"People will get inured to the high of gambling at a certain point and need to gamble with bigger bets and riskier betting options," says Jon Grant, who studies addiction at the University of Chicago. "When people try to stop, they go through withdrawal, with insomnia, agitation, irritability, and a feeling of being ill at ease, similar to what we see in some substance abuse disorders."
Problem gambling also runs in families, alongside other addictions. "If you have family members with alcohol use disorders, you're at increased risk for gambling disorder," says Nancy Petry, who studies addictive disorders at the University of Connecticut and served on the committee that led the reclassification of problem gambling as a behavioral addiction.
There may be some common genetic or brain differences in people who are more inclined to develop addictions, Petry says. For example, research shows that problem gamblers and drug addicts share many of the same genetic predispositions for impulsivity and reward-seeking behaviors.
This Is Your Brain on Gambling
Much of the research that supports classifying gambling disorder with other addictions comes from brain imaging studies and neurochemical tests. These have revealed commonalities in the way that gambling and drugs of abuse act on the brain, and the way the brains of addicts respond to such cues. The evidence indicates that gambling activates the brain's reward system in much the same way that a drug does.
"Across many studies, the same brain areas come up time and time again — the ventral striatum and the prefrontal cortex," says Luke Clark, a psychologist at the University of British Columbia.
The ventral striatum, located deep inside the brain, has been termed the brain's reward center, and it's been implicated in reward processing as well as substance abuse.
When people with gambling disorder watch gambling videos or participate in simulated gambling while their brains are being scanned, scientists can see changes in blood flow in specific brain areas, indicating which areas are more active. In one study, both problem gamblers and cocaine addicts watched videos related to their addictions while in a functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) scanner. Both groups showed diminished activation in the ventral striatum compared to healthy control participants. Problem gamblers also showed less ventral striatum activity during simulated gambling games and during the anticipation of monetary rewards than did people without gambling problems.
Secondly, there is a huge wealth of information out therein documentaries, studies, research etc. that shows exactly how these bookies tailor their ads to both addicts and recovering addicts. Check out panorama about VIP gambling programs for people who spend lots of money, and the constant stream of emails, letters and phone calls they get from bookies if they dare to stop spending for a few weeks. It seems extremely strange for the bookies to go through all of that effort and spend all of that money if advertising has no effect on gambling addicts.
Thirdly, its possible (as you well know) for an individual to be completely responsible for their own decisions, but for us to also acknowledge that outside influences have a huge effect when you look at large groups of people. No-one is saying 'they made me do it', people are saying 'this advertising makes life unbearable for people who have this addiction, can we please have some sympathy for their situation?'
Fourthly, drugs are a dangerous addiction like gambling, so advertising is not allowed, so this point is just stupid.
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in_the_top_one
Vital Football Legend
They don't start off with the bet. They start off by thinking the bet would be fun and /or beneficial and then seeing how and where that bet can be placed.
It's almost as if they might have been better off not making that bet in the first place.
