Jesus never existed - claims writer Michael Paulkovich | Page 3 | Vital Football

Jesus never existed - claims writer Michael Paulkovich

Green Tea - 2/10/2014 17:03

If there was concrete evidence that could be found - then the belief in Jesus, it wouldnt be based on faith but instead based on fact. Thus destroying the whole message.
Click to expand...



I disagree, if it was proven fact, the message would be proven true, it would be the one, the whole world would be living in peace, no boundaries, everyone helping everyone else, no other religions, no religious wars, no greed or hunger, insert the rest of "imagine" here.

IF such a man existed, there would surely be some mention of him in texts of the time, a write up in the Sunday Herod, objections and planned actions by outraged bakers and fishermen, there would be some mention, wouldn't there?


 
Juan Mourep - 2/10/2014 23:29


I think the problem there Clive is that you are attributing a lack of morality and general bad behaviour on a lack of religion, when in reality it is more likely the withdrawal of a teachers power to physically punish a pupil, and the handcuffing of the parents, that in my honest opinion is the real problem, many children run riot and the parents can do nothing.

The flip side is that with a chemical based diet for most, side effects are to be expected.
Click to expand...
Now this is a very good explanation as to why things am turning out they am and we am all seeing it, video games with killings on them, kids allowed to roam the streets in massive gangs wearing hoods over there faces in the early hours etc this modern era is imho on the verge of collapse sooner or later unless we revert back to older days society which is why i was questioning about religion playing a part in the old closer community feel, but good point rased dude feckin chemicals am in everything now even this cordial Vimto i am drinking full of flouride ay :21:
 
Discipline is a massive loss, ok my grandad was hard but when he reached for his belt the playing up stopped and we all shut up, even when he spoke and warned us w better not play upor else wa enough, now kids attack older folk and all that, school aswell i used to get away with everything in the older days i bet i wouldt have and stopped playin up so too would the kids today.
 
thefacehead - 2/10/2014 22:58

Clive, they used to burn people alive for the purpose of religion, they're quite keen about chopping people's heads off in the middle east right now in fact.

Human society will always have these problems, but people should and do, quite happily live lives of good morality without religious influence.
Click to expand...

Which proves what, after the witchhunts for example let alone our own recent religion problems in Northern Ireland - the Middle East are a little behind us, just like the US in terms of growing up?
 
Green Tea - 2/10/2014 17:03

If there was concrete evidence that could be found - then the belief in Jesus, it wouldnt be based on faith but instead based on fact. Thus destroying the whole message.
Click to expand...

If there was proof, the message would not be destroyed. That's a misnomber to justify your position thinking you are better than everybody else because you believe in the implausible, the impossible and sorry GT (with you stated beliefs) the fucking ridiculous, dreamy and retarded.

IF there was proof, it would not weaken, destroy, or nullify - it would strengthen, it would become inate, it would prosper.

The very lack of proof in religion (ignoring all elements of non of you religious folk can agree anyway) shows it to be a fallacy. The sensible believe and take what they can and try and improve life and take the strength that belief gives them to do better.

Others use it as an excuse, a crutch, oh I'll be forgiven regardless.

It's not the religion that makes that person, it's the person. They just lean on something different to everyone else.

But claiming proof would end the message - are you that shallow?

Really, to maybe put it in terms you might get. You believe Villa will win 3-0 this weekend.

If Villa won 3-0 this weekend, would that diminish your belief?

Or would it strengthen the fact that people across the world who believed we'd win 3-0 were right, and would it not help people who think we'd win 2-0 have more faith?

I expect this not to be answered until it's only 10K years old.
 
And Clive again - really nothing has changed as per other thread.

We are now managed by the media. Scare story's, your neighbourhod in all honesty will be no different - you are just looking now for the arseholes rather than not looking for them.

They've always existed.
 
Juan completely disagree....I'm not against rounding on pointless teachers.

But it's the parents fullstop. Those incapable of taking care of themselves always in former years had people and family around them to make up for it, these days with the change in society they don't.

It begins and ends with the parents and how good or bad a teacher is - isn't going to change that behaviour in a kid.

If the parents don't teach the right balance on authority and questioning, teachers (good or bad) don't stand a chance.

Parents can do everything and don't let the retarded 'I was smacked and got daddy charged' stories change that fact.

It's an excuse by those who'd rather drink and not care for why they can't tell little didums the truth of life or set an example.

Discipline and smacking is not against the law. Abuse is.
 
No doubt things am more highlighted media wise again agree, but families ain't as close as they used to be, my family used to be together almost everyday and week now it;s just when we see each other and pop past the house and they am outside it, many saying the same to me aswell, i really think this so called modern era we am in has been affected by mass imigration, social warfare from the elite ba**ads and drugs, and now there is no real cimmunity feeling as people am moving all the time aswell whereas back in the day everybody knew where each and everyone lived not anymore,
 
No mate, nothing to do with what you suggest. Nowt to do with immigration, welfare and all the rest.

That's an excuse.

And to be on topic, that's the excuse organised religion gives to blame others and not take account of yourself. Be sinful, say sorry and a few hail Mary's, but don't change....

Believe in Jesus, excuse everything....you've going to heaven in his name as long as you say sorry?

You mention immigration - you really think you're English? If you learned your ancestors were raping Vikings would that change who you were in your heart?

An ancestory or a belief in a higher power has no affect on what you are as a man....blaming anybody but you for your actions is a cop out.

I'. regularly a bastard, I'm not religious, I apologise to Peppa Pig and rub her gently and then enjoy bacon, but it's not my fault, the Danish bacon market causes me to sin.
 
I saw a sign on a church today by Bristol Street Motors.It says,The Redeemed Christian Church of God.

Does this mean only old sinners can go to this church as it is for redeemed people ?
Anyway i thought only God had the power of forgiveness,which means whoever goes to that church must be already dead,unless God has come back,but he can`t have come back because he was never here in the first place.Oh this stuff confuses me !
 
Is there evidence outside of the biblical record? Yes there is, if you accept it. Thallos, Pliny, Suetonius, Tacitus, Mara Bar Serapion, Luciano, Cellus, Josephus, etc. It's the same kind of evidence that is used to prove Pontius Pilate existed. A 'fact' disputed by many until the discovery of an inscription on a building in 1965, and still disputed by some.

As with most who lived during a time when the written record was only about the 'important' and the 'victorious' the written sources are few, and are some considerable time after the fact. It's not the same as modern history.

Does any of this categorically 'prove' the biblical accounts? Nope.
Does any of it make the central message of grace, 'love' for fellow human beings, reconciliation, etc, unimportant. Nope.

Before Paulkovich was Wells. It's an old argument, which like many things in 'history' is one thesis, there are others equally passionately held, and the truth as a fact is not known. This is the same as all sorts of things not just Jesus.
 
revdpete - 3/10/2014 03:52

Is there evidence outside of the biblical record? Yes there is, if you accept it. Thallos, Pliny, Suetonius, Tacitus, Mara Bar Serapion, Luciano, Cellus, Josephus, etc. It's the same kind of evidence that is used to prove Pontius Pilate existed. A 'fact' disputed by many until the discovery of an inscription on a building in 1965, and still disputed by some.

As with most who lived during a time when the written record was only about the 'important' and the 'victorious' the written sources are few, and are some considerable time after the fact. It's not the same as modern history.

Does any of this categorically 'prove' the biblical accounts? Nope.
Does any of it make the central message of grace, 'love' for fellow human beings, reconciliation, etc, unimportant. Nope.

Before Paulkovich was Wells. It's an old argument, which like many things in 'history' is one thesis, there are others equally passionately held, and the truth as a fact is not known. This is the same as all sorts of things not just Jesus.
Click to expand...

Good to see you around rev

:18: :18: :18:
 
mike_field - 3/10/2014 00:18

thefacehead - 2/10/2014 22:58

Clive, they used to burn people alive for the purpose of religion, they're quite keen about chopping people's heads off in the middle east right now in fact.

Human society will always have these problems, but people should and do, quite happily live lives of good morality without religious influence.
Click to expand...

Which proves what, after the witchhunts for example let alone our own recent religion problems in Northern Ireland - the Middle East are a little behind us, just like the US in terms of growing up?
Click to expand...

I dunno what the fuck you're on about Mike, you're just doing your usual late night criticise people's comments for the sake of it.

I addressed Clives issues on morality and pointed out that I don't believe that we need religion to be good, and that indeed there are plenty that manage to be moral without religion. Then you come along and slam me for no reason!
 
ClivetheVillan - 2/10/2014 23:10

face dude what some do who abuse the powers or positions they get into we can't jusdge all the very same people with them beliefs can we? Also back then there was a lot of things that was not understood as today, otherwise people in the future could surely class me and you as the same as the ones that sent us towar in Iraq Blair and Bush?

My point remains dude, society and my local area what i know too has changed so bad and everybody who i used to know i see now says the same thing how bad it has got and people am more selfish nasty and out for themselves and untrustworthy in general, there is more fear and selfish people than their used to be, when the majority was religious this wasn't happneing and that my face dude is a fact and remember i ay religious i am just being honest and fair about the subject and saying what i know too.

In an ideal world yes we all should be able to not need a religion to bond together through tough times and care for one another etc but maybe we ay ready as we think we ought to be and need a religion to keep us together?
Click to expand...

Do you not think they have these social problems in America Clive? They happen to be uber religious there bud, I understand what you're saying, but society goes through these periods of discontent.

Look at some of the social problems that face our generation compared to say people growing up in the 60's, we have lower incomes, less chance of getting a job, first time buyers can't buy, there are people reliant on food banks to eat.

I'm not saying I don't think that some morals have been lost with a decline in religious practice, but the social strains on society at the moment in my view are more of a factor towards such poor morality, it doesn't matter how religious you are, if you're poor you're poor, and a lot of people are, rightly or wrongly, very bitter about it.
 
Juan Mourep - 2/10/2014 23:38

Green Tea - 2/10/2014 17:03

If there was concrete evidence that could be found - then the belief in Jesus, it wouldnt be based on faith but instead based on fact. Thus destroying the whole message.
Click to expand...



I disagree, if it was proven fact, the message would be proven true, it would be the one, the whole world would be living in peace, no boundaries, everyone helping everyone else, no other religions, no religious wars, no greed or hunger, insert the rest of "imagine" here.

IF such a man existed, there would surely be some mention of him in texts of the time, a write up in the Sunday Herod, objections and planned actions by outraged bakers and fishermen, there would be some mention, wouldn't there?
Click to expand...


Sounds kind of against scripture and the creation story. The greed and hunger is all part of our journey, all decided by the creation itself. Only when all this gone will we have no greed, no wars, no hunger and the proof in existence of a creator.
 
I am taking this away from the actual topic which is did Jesus exist or not?. Does it actually matter. If you can think out of the box can you look at the amount of work done in Christ name.

Yes so many look to the negative side, which is a very human thing to do. Let's face it, negativity sells, good news doesn't.

The amount of missionary work done abroad and at home by the church is alot more than most of you think.

You can say that people don't have to be of faith to do that, which is quite true, however the Christian church is not about buildings, it is about the body of Christ, meaning the church people, the fellowship.

People scoff at the church and say it is outdated and should be done away with, yet don't look at all the good done through the church.

In this country alone, here are a few charities run by the Christian church.

1/ Food banks: Started by the Trussel group, founded on Christian principles. http://www.trusselltrust.org/mission-and-vision

2/ CAP (Christians Against Poverty) Helping people get out of debt, with debt management and support in a variety of ways. https://capuk.org/about-us

3/ Reflect (Pregnancy crisis and Pregnancy Loss Support) http://www.yell.com/biz/reflect-pregnancy-support-901299550/ This is for the York area, however are available throughout the country

4/ Community Nursing (CMF)

5/ Street Angels. Helping those out on a night drinking and in trouble. http://www.sa-cni.org.uk/ This is now spreading through out the country.

4/ The majority of churches have in some shape, or another 1 or more of these type of services: youth groups working with young people, running disco's and youth activities, Mom's & Dad's groups, elderly groups, out reach work, various counselling services, ancillary groups serving the community.

The work is done as missionary and no one is made to sign up for anything just because they use our services.

6/ Then amongst the thousands of missionaries abroad, working for agencies and as singular people called to work abroad, there are such missions as Tearfund. Here is 1 link to 1 of the thousands of links for people to work abroad under the Christian name. http://www.christianvolunteering.org/

..................................

My point: I am fed up of people pulling my faith apart. Ofcourse that is your choice. However here are a few facts of what is done in the name of Christianity, as always been done, to some degree, though not as much as today.

It doesn't damn well matter the nitty gritty parts, as that isn't the core of this. The core of the Christian church is about people coming together under the same name with a common bond and thread to work together for the good of others.

Yes people can live moral lives, without the Christian fellowship. Much is done not under the Christian name, however there is a heck of alot more done, quietly, unassumingly by billions world wide whilst others stand and scoff and don't look at really matters.

Most people don't even realise that these charities people talk so much about are run by the church people fellowships.

As communities we are in a position to get far more done as contrary to the sneering and we are so out of date, the majority at some stage with or without knowing it will or know someone who has benefited from the work of the church so many of you sneer at.

..................................................................

Has for the point of a Christian can just carry on with their wrongs using the church has a cover, there isn't 1 person alive who is perfect. Yes many use the church for a cover. The majority dont'. Many go into many areas of trust to use it for a cover and a way to predicate on others. Schools/care homes are just 2 to name many of.

Yes I am defending my Christian fellowship, just as I defend many things right or wrong: My youngsters, my family, my friends, my football club, my country and so on.

I never see atheists have to defend their beliefs like we do
 
As you say how much good is done by people with no religious beliefs, yet they don't feel the need to publicise it? It's the age old crap - you're better than us. Quite frankly, it's an insult. I find it deeply offensive every time you post something like that, as it implies you're Christian friends are better than the rest of us.

Those people are good people. Christianity didn't make them good. If it never existed they would have found another way to help. The Church is just a convenient structure.

And how many new followers has all that good work gained for the church? There is always an ulterior motive, kef. It's something the Church has used for 2,000 years.
 
revdpete - 3/10/2014 03:52

Is there evidence outside of the biblical record? Yes there is, if you accept it. Thallos, Pliny, Suetonius, Tacitus, Mara Bar Serapion, Luciano, Cellus, Josephus, etc. It's the same kind of evidence that is used to prove Pontius Pilate existed. A 'fact' disputed by many until the discovery of an inscription on a building in 1965, and still disputed by some.

As with most who lived during a time when the written record was only about the 'important' and the 'victorious' the written sources are few, and are some considerable time after the fact. It's not the same as modern history.

Does any of this categorically 'prove' the biblical accounts? Nope.
Does any of it make the central message of grace, 'love' for fellow human beings, reconciliation, etc, unimportant. Nope.

Before Paulkovich was Wells. It's an old argument, which like many things in 'history' is one thesis, there are others equally passionately held, and the truth as a fact is not known. This is the same as all sorts of things not just Jesus.
Click to expand...

The point of the thread is that there is nothing written from the period of Christ (not that we know exactly when that was). All those listed above were later, and some have been proven to have been edited to match the Christian story at a later date. It does look suspicious.

Add to that the inconsistencies in the Bible to try and shoehorn him in as a descendant of David, and did one person actually exist as Jesus?
 
Green Tea - 3/10/2014 05:32

Juan Mourep - 2/10/2014 23:38

Green Tea - 2/10/2014 17:03

If there was concrete evidence that could be found - then the belief in Jesus, it wouldnt be based on faith but instead based on fact. Thus destroying the whole message.
Click to expand...



I disagree, if it was proven fact, the message would be proven true, it would be the one, the whole world would be living in peace, no boundaries, everyone helping everyone else, no other religions, no religious wars, no greed or hunger, insert the rest of "imagine" here.

IF such a man existed, there would surely be some mention of him in texts of the time, a write up in the Sunday Herod, objections and planned actions by outraged bakers and fishermen, there would be some mention, wouldn't there?
Click to expand...


Sounds kind of against scripture and the creation story. The greed and hunger is all part of our journey, all decided by the creation itself. Only when all this gone will we have no greed, no wars, no hunger and the proof in existence of a creator.
Click to expand...

So, never then. At least we cleared that up.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.