I hate what the world is becoming

[Platypus]

Gandhi also didn't like Africans at one point in his life making a string of racist comments about them.

To me it's always difficult to apply modern standards to historical events/ and characters. It's not that we shouldn't do it and be in a position to not have an opinion or not pass moral judgement or even shake things off entire as "that's how it was in those days". But we nevertheless need to apply quite a few caveats at the very least with respect to how those times where, what the 'sciences' of the day said and how things were frankly more tribal and less globalised.

The Colston statue went up in 1895 and slavery was already many years illegal and viewed as an abomination by nearly all. The statue and all the "Colston Day" events and personality cult were invented by upper class citizens of Bristol who believed the city needed a kind of moral idol to personify the city. The statue itself and the cult surrounding it were actually truly trying to re-write history as myth. The Bristol Merchant Venturer's Society are the last remnants of that cult with any real influence in the city and confounded attempts for years for any contextualisation around a statue glorifying one of the biggest slavers in British history smack bang in the middle of a city with double the national average of black residents. Old Eddie ending up in the drink is the inevitable end-point of people being ignored for at least three decades of trying to find a way to resolve it amicably.

Colston was a beast made filthy rich by trading humans and even his famous "philanthropy" was explicitly only made available to institutions of his own denomination of Christianity. As Tory MP for Bristol he fought tooth and nail against the abolition of slavery and he was unrepentant, even as slavery was steadily becoming to be viewed as the abomination it is, even during his own lifetime.

 

[colavfc]

The Colston statue went up in 1895 and slavery was already many years illegal and viewed as an abomination by nearly all. The statue and all the "Colston Day" events and personality cult were invented by upper class citizens of Bristol who believed the city needed a kind of moral idol to personify the city. The statue itself and the cult surrounding it were actually truly trying to re-write history as myth. The Bristol Merchant Venturer's Society are the last remnants of that cult with any real influence in the city and confounded attempts for years for any contextualisation around a statue glorifying one of the biggest slavers in British history smack bang in the middle of a city with double the national average of black residents. Old Eddie ending up in the drink is the inevitable end-point of people being ignored for at least three decades of trying to find a way to resolve it amicably.

Colston was a beast made filthy rich by trading humans and even his famous "philanthropy" was explicitly only made available to institutions of his own denomination of Christianity. As Tory MP for Bristol he fought tooth and nail against the abolition of slavery and he was unrepentant, even as slavery was steadily becoming to be viewed as the abomination it is, even during his own lifetime.

Well hopefully history won't repeat itself then because we've erased everything that we can learn from.

 

[Platypus]

Well hopefully history won't repeat itself then because we've erased everything that we can learn from.

That's just not true is it. We learn from museums and books, not statues put up to glorify people. You couldn't put anyone's true entire story on a plaque, not even the most boring of us.

Statues are there to *celebrate* people, not educate us about them, and we can absolutely change who as a society we choose to celebrate, as that reflects on us now, not on how they were viewed at the time. There aren't many Hitler statues in Germany, are there? I think we've all heard of Hitler though somehow.

 

[Pangloss]

The Colston statue went up in 1895 and slavery was already many years illegal and viewed as an abomination by nearly all. The statue and all the "Colston Day" events and personality cult were invented by upper class citizens of Bristol who believed the city needed a kind of moral idol to personify the city. The statue itself and the cult surrounding it were actually truly trying to re-write history as myth. The Bristol Merchant Venturer's Society are the last remnants of that cult with any real influence in the city and confounded attempts for years for any contextualisation around a statue glorifying one of the biggest slavers in British history smack bang in the middle of a city with double the national average of black residents. Old Eddie ending up in the drink is the inevitable end-point of people being ignored for at least three decades of trying to find a way to resolve it amicably.

Colston was a beast made filthy rich by trading humans and even his famous "philanthropy" was explicitly only made available to institutions of his own denomination of Christianity. As Tory MP for Bristol he fought tooth and nail against the abolition of slavery and he was unrepentant, even as slavery was steadily becoming to be viewed as the abomination it is, even during his own lifetime.

100% agree with this, I just don't really agree with the means for which it has been disposed of. There ought to be better, more democratic ways although the council have been found particularly wanting on it.

 

[Pride of Lions]

 

[astonion2]

100% agree with this, I just don't really agree with the means for which it has been disposed of. There ought to be better, more democratic ways although the council have been found particularly wanting on it.

It has'nt been disposed of, it has been restored by the council and is in a warehouse. They were reporting last week that because of all the publicity around it it is now worth 50 times more than it was before.

 

[wittonite]

It has'nt been disposed of, it has been restored by the council and is in a warehouse. They were reporting last week that because of all the publicity around it it is now worth 50 times more than it was before.

It also wasn't disposed of in a democratic fashion either
It was removed by a left wing mob acting as judge and jury, just as they do at universities and other places across the the country.

 

[Pangloss]

It also wasn't disposed of in a democratic fashion either
It was removed by a left wing mob acting as judge and jury, just as they do at universities and other places across the the country.

Exactly. There's a might is right element to this.

 

[Platypus]

Exactly. There's a might is right element to this.

Might is right previously employed by the Rich as God Merchant Venturers to prevent any democratic discussion of the monument that was put up by a handful of rich people without consulting the people.

 

[wittonite]

Might is right previously employed by the Rich as God Merchant Venturers to prevent any democratic discussion of the monument that was put up by a handful of rich people without consulting the people.

And it was pulled down without consulting the people.

 

[Platypus]

And it was pulled down without consulting the people.

Because the people had been demanding to be consulted for decades and were ignored.

 

[CDX_EIRE]

The bald guy is a US Senator, let's let kids decide whether Nazism is good or bad... LOL, utter madness

https://twitter.com/x/status/1479221391971033089

He really thought he was on to something

 

[wittonite]

Gi

Because the people had been demanding to be consulted for decades and were ignored.

What people,?.
Given that the council were sympathetic to the minority activist views, why not a referendum of Bristol residents to give a definitive answer.

 

[colavfc]

That's just not true is it. We learn from museums and books, not statues put up to glorify people. You couldn't put anyone's true entire story on a plaque, not even the most boring of us.

Statues are there to *celebrate* people, not educate us about them, and we can absolutely change who as a society we choose to celebrate, as that reflects on us now, not on how they were viewed at the time. There aren't many Hitler statues in Germany, are there? I think we've all heard of Hitler though somehow.

So the statue needs to go to a museum then with all the information attached. Like what normal straight headed people think.

What are we going to do about the university with his name attached to it? Surely that's glorifying and celebrating him also?

I think Hitler is a bit of an extreme example to give don't you? Where was the good in that man?

But I do think we have a big problem with this cancel culture. It's getting to the point where someone can't have an opinion even if that opinion is scientifically perfectly correct. History is history. It happened. It's fact.
Imagine if we hadn't heard of Hitler though? How many border line extreme racists could have been grown because they didn't learn from his ways.

 

[Villan57]

Gi

What people,?.
Given that the council were sympathetic to the minority activist views, why not a referendum of Bristol residents to give a definitive answer.

They had discussed/voted on it at the city council level many times and decided the statute was ok and the council leader is/was black

 

[CDX_EIRE]

So the statue needs to go to a museum then with all the information attached. Like what normal straight headed people think.

What are we going to do about the university with his name attached to it? Surely that's glorifying and celebrating him also?

I think Hitler is a bit of an extreme example to give don't you? Where was the good in that man?

But I do think we have a big problem with this cancel culture. It's getting to the point where someone can't have an opinion even if that opinion is scientifically perfectly correct. History is history. It happened. It's fact.
Imagine if we hadn't heard of Hitler though? How many border line extreme racists could have been grown because they didn't learn from his ways.

You're probably right that many statues should go to a democratic vote but I'd clarify that in no way would I allow "statue without context/history" as an option. For example, George Washington and others all had slaves. I cant see how America can celebrate many of its presidents when so many had slaves. especially when none of them saw fit to give African Americans equal rights in the constitution. It was founded as a slave nation and a lot of Americans live in ignorance of that simple fact. Similarly, English history glosses over the fact the British Empire started the Atlantic slave trade. The preferred view is the Spanish, French, and Portuguese were worse and the British Empire was the first to outlaw it. The latter is true but the former is a stretch, nobody was better or worse than the rest. All are tarnished. I also struggle with countries minimizing their roles in horrific events in history. Japan doesn't really teach its citizens about what it did in China in WW2. Just because everyone does it doesnt make it right.

Re: cancel culture I wouldn't apply that to a statue and greater men than Ed have had their statues taken down. Thomas Jeffersons was removed in NY (by vote). A founding father, 3rd president of the US and author of the Declaration of Independence who also enslaved over 600 people and he raped at least one of them. Its also alleged he slept with underage girls. Ed shipped at least 80,000 people out of Africa and its estimated about 20,000 died in transport.

Given the extremism and confidence of white supremecists it was absolutely the right thing to do to remove all Nazi symbolism from Germany. Can you imagine if they had left anything up? Thats my theory as well with the Confederate Statues and monuments left up in the South. I think all of that emboldens Southern Racists to march, to protest, and spread their language of hate around the South. All in the name of "history and tradition". The only case in history where the loser has written history and been allowed to maintain a large part of their culture.

 

[Gillette]

Diversity doesn't work when using democracy. If a status seriously offends a minority section of people then should a democratic vote over if it is kept on public display overrule them?

 

[wittonite]

They had discussed/voted on it at the city council level many times and decided the statute was ok and the council leader is/was black

Thank you.

 

[colavfc]

You're probably right that many statues should go to a democratic vote but I'd clarify that in no way would I allow "statue without context/history" as an option. For example, George Washington and others all had slaves. I cant see how America can celebrate many of its presidents when so many had slaves. especially when none of them saw fit to give African Americans equal rights in the constitution. It was founded as a slave nation and a lot of Americans live in ignorance of that simple fact. Similarly, English history glosses over the fact the British Empire started the Atlantic slave trade. The preferred view is the Spanish, French, and Portuguese were worse and the British Empire was the first to outlaw it. The latter is true but the former is a stretch, nobody was better or worse than the rest. All are tarnished. I also struggle with countries minimizing their roles in horrific events in history. Japan doesn't really teach its citizens about what it did in China in WW2. Just because everyone does it doesnt make it right.

Re: cancel culture I wouldn't apply that to a statue and greater men than Ed have had their statues taken down. Thomas Jeffersons was removed in NY (by vote). A founding father, 3rd president of the US and author of the Declaration of Independence who also enslaved over 600 people and he raped at least one of them. Its also alleged he slept with underage girls. Ed shipped at least 80,000 people out of Africa and its estimated about 20,000 died in transport.

Given the extremism and confidence of white supremecists it was absolutely the right thing to do to remove all Nazi symbolism from Germany. Can you imagine if they had left anything up? Thats my theory as well with the Confederate Statues and monuments left up in the South. I think all of that emboldens Southern Racists to march, to protest, and spread their language of hate around the South. All in the name of "history and tradition". The only case in history where the loser has written history and been allowed to maintain a large part of their culture.

Where did the British empire buy their slaves from? Please answer this.

 

[Platypus]

They had discussed/voted on it at the city council level many times and decided the statute was ok and the council leader is/was black

That's not true.

The statue was held in trust by the Merchant Venturers Society who have vetoed suggestion after suggestion to add even the tiniest bit of context over the years. They even rewrote a different plaque that had been agreed and through every step of the council just a few years ago.

Yours, a Bristol resident of many years.