Here we go! | Page 414 | Vital Football

Here we go!

Polly 433 said:
You are struggling with the concept of democracy, constituency and first past the post. Not perfect but the best we have got.
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I am not the one who is struggling, chap.

You say your vote has no impact so you use it as a protest vote then you try to imply that Feco’s vote has no impact is what is wrong with the EU power structure.

Doesn’t matter what process is used, your comment is hypocritical.
 
Polly 433 said:
Feco’s argument, we’ll put, would be stronger if the representation he has, had any power and responsibility. He voted for an MEP who has very limited power and only in what the EU and Commissioners allow discussion and votes on. He got no vote on who or what commissioners stood for and cannot get rid when shown to be incompetent. If he had true representation then that would be different.

We were the Eurosceptic voice that challenged many decisions but not once did that sway them from the road they are on. They are playing the long game.
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As I said previously I don't disagree that the Commission needs a significant change, including shipping the power more to the elected MEP's.
The problem in giving MEP's more power though is that challenges the power of the individual countries MP's. How many elected bodies do you need???
For that reason it is every MP in every single country within the EU's best interest to maintain the Commission as it is, whilst of course criticising it constantly. There is no will at national level to change a thing.

Politically I find the EU frustrating. I do believe that it is a cumbersome organisation that sometimes makes frankly bizarre statements and decisions.
That said, away from the politics, some of the achievements and progress that has been made in the EU by its members and cumbersome systems are impressive.
Being able to trade, work and partner with companies and customers across 27 countries, without tariffs and red tape, all whilst sharing the same standards is an achievement. The ability travel and learn without restrictions.
Integration of the aviation industries, energy, pharmaceutical to name a few are successes, and something that the UK was central in developing.
The fact that we are no longer in a position to do that is a deeper source of frustration to me.....and is harmful to UK, despite what you may think.
Europe achieved a lot in less than 30 years....the USA has been trying for 245 years and is a long way from being perfect.

The EU is something all Forest fans recognise...work in progress.
 
Feco said:
As I said previously I don't disagree that the Commission needs a significant change, including shipping the power more to the elected MEP's.
The problem in giving MEP's more power though is that challenges the power of the individual countries MP's. How many elected bodies do you need???
For that reason it is every MP in every single country within the EU's best interest to maintain the Commission as it is, whilst of course criticising it constantly. There is no will at national level to change a thing.

Politically I find the EU frustrating. I do believe that it is a cumbersome organisation that sometimes makes frankly bizarre statements and decisions.
That said, away from the politics, some of the achievements and progress that has been made in the EU by its members and cumbersome systems are impressive.
Being able to trade, work and partner with companies and customers across 27 countries, without tariffs and red tape, all whilst sharing the same standards is an achievement. The ability travel and learn without restrictions.
Integration of the aviation industries, energy, pharmaceutical to name a few are successes, and something that the UK was central in developing.
The fact that we are no longer in a position to do that is a deeper source of frustration to me.....and is harmful to UK, despite what you may think.
Europe achieved a lot in less than 30 years....the USA has been trying for 245 years and is a long way from being perfect.

The EU is something all Forest fans recognise...work in progress.
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Fair comment.
 
JC21 said:
I don't want to get caught up in the whole EU debate again but in the following post you accuse Polly of cancel culture

https://forums.vitalfootball.co.uk/goto/post?id=3096473

In the post I've quoted you're calling an obvious left-wing/Labour (old not New)/socialist a 'Tory in Labour clothing'. Is that not the very definition of 'cancel culture'?
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1. The post war Elysee Treaty between France and Germany was signed in the early 60s long before Brussles became the focal point of the EU. Polly is re-writing history with referencing NATO and Brussels.

2. The second part is intended to ruffle feathers. Polly is nothing but a card carrying left wing zealot who got into bed, instead of objecting, with the same institution that they're supposed to hate whilst siding with the tories. Tory in labour clothing
 
Pope John XXIII said:
According to the Daily Heil, Labour have a 6% lead in the polls this week.

Just imagine if Starmer had any actual policies or had managed to say a single intelligible thing this week
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6% impressive untill you realise we are over 2 years away from an election and that Boris has done what he was supposed to do

The Barclay brothers ( Minus one as he died recently), Rothermere and Murdoch now want Gove and possibly Sunak ( Still can't see him getting it ) to take control 0f this one party nation

2 years is enough time for them to start their attack on Labour unless you know Starmer becomes a God parent to one of Murdochs kids like Tory Blair did
 
da fuq said:
6% impressive untill you realise we are over 2 years away from an election and that Boris has done what he was supposed to do

The Barclay brothers ( Minus one as he died recently), Rothermere and Murdoch now want Gove and possibly Sunak ( Still can't see him getting it ) to take control 0f this one party nation

2 years is enough time for them to start their attack on Labour unless you know Starmer becomes a God parent to one of Murdochs kids like Tory Blair did
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Unless legislation is passed to prevent voting anything but Tory and/ or vote rigging becomes the norm then this one party state that you are banging on about cant happen can it? If you or anyone else wants a change in government then it is and always has been up to an opposition to make itself more of an attractive proposition to a majority of the electorate.
 
jbacsta said:
Unless legislation is passed to prevent voting anything but Tory and/ or vote rigging becomes the norm then this one party state that you are banging on about cant happen can it? If you or anyone else wants a change in government then it is and always has been up to an opposition to make itself more of an attractive proposition to a majority of the electorate.
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Two words

Boundary changes

What you find shouldnt surprise you and is the reason for claims of a one party state.
 
The fact that it feels like a one party state shows just how badly Labour have failed the electorate. The have failed both the left and the centre and all we can do is hope the Tories implode to level the playing field.

And spare a thought for the Liberals who were slowly building up to being a third choice before they fucked it all by going into coalition. They were already a couple of decades away from their goal but now they are starting from scratch and it serves them right.
 
Basha73 said:
The fact that it feels like a one party state shows just how badly Labour have failed the electorate. The have failed both the left and the centre and all we can do is hope the Tories implode to level the playing field.

And spare a thought for the Liberals who were slowly building up to being a third choice before they fucked it all by going into coalition. They were already a couple of decades away from their goal but now they are starting from scratch and it serves them right.
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I of course dont want to be included in your latest "we".
 
Basha73 said:
The fact that it feels like a one party state shows just how badly Labour have failed the electorate. The have failed both the left and the centre and all we can do is hope the Tories implode to level the playing field.

And spare a thought for the Liberals who were slowly building up to being a third choice before they fucked it all by going into coalition. They were already a couple of decades away from their goal but now they are starting from scratch and it serves them right.
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The Tories can implode as much as they want in 2 years it won't count for shit

Any opposition is irrelevant now the centrists, the right wing media and Brexit have given us the cards we are now having to deal with

People like me in my 40's and 50's have lost out ...this is the shit we are going to have deal with until we die

The end
 
JC21 said:
I don't want to get caught up in the whole EU debate again but in the following post you accuse Polly of cancel culture

https://forums.vitalfootball.co.uk/goto/post?id=3096473

In the post I've quoted you're calling an obvious left-wing/Labour (old not New)/socialist a 'Tory in Labour clothing'. Is that not the very definition of 'cancel culture'?
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No one has been cancelled its a fucking myth a semantic wank fest

People have been held accountable
Right or wrong no one has been cancelled

Its another fucking shit thing used by idiots like woke etc

Predominantly used by those on the right like Trumpanese, populists and Brexshitters

Or plainly white old men
 
da fuq said:
The Tories can implode as much as they want in 2 years it won't count for shit

Any opposition is irrelevant now the centrists, the right wing media and Brexit have given us the cards we are now having to deal with

People like me in my 40's and 50's have lost out ...this is the shit we are going to have deal with until we die

The end
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More of the country is centrist than right or left leaning.

Some, like me, will continue to vote Labour despite their failures purely because we despise the Tories and will never vote for them.

Others will protest vote or not vote at all. Yet others will actually convert to the Tory cause.

Blaming the centrists is far too simplistic and ignores the larger concern. There is no viable opposition right when the country needs one. Labour has been an utter failure in that regard since the wrong Milliband won the party vote.

If you want to get people on board find something or someone the centrists and the left can unite behind.

If that doesn’t happen we are all going to be stuck with this shitshow, even jbacsta who is clapping them on from the sidelines.
 
jbacsta said:
Surprised that you should say that. I thought you spoke for the whole forum.
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Well I did change it but the sentiment remains.

I have only ever spoken for one person on here - myself. If people choose to agree with me then great.

You do seem obsessed with this notion that either I am part of a group or speak on behalf of people though. Anything you would like to admit is it just the green eyed monster again?
 
Basha73 said:
More of the country is centrist than right or left leaning.

Some, like me, will continue to vote Labour despite their failures purely because we despise the Tories and will never vote for them.

Others will protest vote or not vote at all. Yet others will actually convert to the Tory cause.

Blaming the centrists is far too simplistic and ignores the larger concern. There is no viable opposition right when the country needs one. Labour has been an utter failure in that regard since the wrong Milliband won the party vote.

If you want to get people on board find something or someone the centrists and the left can unite behind.

If that doesn’t happen we are all going to be stuck with this shitshow, even jbacsta who is clapping them on from the sidelines.
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Bash how many years have we had under right wing govts since the inception of govt and how many years have we had that are centrist or left

History tells its own story
It can't dictate the future but it can help you put down a massive bet to win you some 💸

Its a rigged game going back 100's of years in this country

Burgoise Vs proletariat
 
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