FAN BASED MODELS OF OWNERSHIP | Vital Football

FAN BASED MODELS OF OWNERSHIP

daleks.at.the.monaco

daleks.at.the.monaco

Vital 1st Team Regular
In the dark days of the 2019/2020 administration many of us questioned if we would ever have a club to support.

Many on here suggested that we might have to start again at the bottom of the football pyramid, and this would likely be a fan-based model of ownership.

However, It would be nigh on impossible to operate and finance a successful Championship/League One club if it were fan owned. Who would be prepared/be able to put their hand in their pocket as an individual fan to keep the club running (over and above paying for your ticket, pie and pint at a game)? Especially in the summer when the club has no income, and you are going on your family holiday. The administration period Crowdfunders and Wall Fund were exceptions to the norm.

The general consensus on here was “at least we would have a team/club to support”.

Luckily despite the best attempts of our last owners, Wigan Athletic appear to have an owner who is prepared to support our current operating costs and be formulating budgets that will allow the club to continue to trade, dare I say break even.

Very few football clubs break even, and as we know most operate at a loss.

You do question why the football industry is allowed to continue to exist. In any other industry the 92 basket case businesses (plus the clubs in the National League) would be thrown to the wall.

Anyway, despite the above, administration, owners that overspend the agreed EFL budget, the luck of finding a white knight investor in the form of Mr Danson, there are still naysayers on here who want the owner to ‘break the bank’, bemoan the current ownership and question their long-term commitment.

We have a club to support.

We have a youth set up that has saved the club twice in the last 4 years.

We have an owner who is supporting our current losses.

We can see a future in League One rather than a slow decline (why would Mr Danson want to see his asset decline in value)

What is not to like and be happy about the club’s current situation?
 
daleks.at.the.monaco said:
In the dark days of the 2019/2020 administration many of us questioned if we would ever have a club to support.

Many on here suggested that we might have to start again at the bottom of the football pyramid, and this would likely be a fan-based model of ownership.

However, It would be nigh on impossible to operate and finance a successful Championship/League One club if it were fan owned. Who would be prepared/be able to put their hand in their pocket as an individual fan to keep the club running (over and above paying for your ticket, pie and pint at a game)? Especially in the summer when the club has no income, and you are going on your family holiday. The administration period Crowdfunders and Wall Fund were exceptions to the norm.

The general consensus on here was “at least we would have a team/club to support”.

Luckily despite the best attempts of our last owners, Wigan Athletic appear to have an owner who is prepared to support our current operating costs and be formulating budgets that will allow the club to continue to trade, dare I say break even.

Very few football clubs break even, and as we know most operate at a loss.

You do question why the football industry is allowed to continue to exist. In any other industry the 92 basket case businesses (plus the clubs in the National League) would be thrown to the wall.

Anyway, despite the above, administration, owners that overspend the agreed EFL budget, the luck of finding a white knight investor in the form of Mr Danson, there are still naysayers on here who want the owner to ‘break the bank’, bemoan the current ownership and question their long-term commitment.

We have a club to support.

We have a youth set up that has saved the club twice in the last 4 years.

We have an owner who is supporting our current losses.

We can see a future in League One rather than a slow decline (why would Mr Danson want to see his asset decline in value)

What is not to like and be happy about the club’s current situation?
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A lot of Questions will be answered in the close season
 
I think most fans know clubs make loses, but i don't think everyone knows the full extent of the challenges of football finances in L1.

When the previous regime published their annual accounts, there wasn't a great deal of talk about it amongst the fan base despite the numbers being very concerning.

Most fans probably believe that the people in charge are on top of things, but as we've seen with our past 2 owners and we've seen in the past with Bolton and most recently Reading - owners that are happy to underwrite spending way beyond your means can pull out at any time and leave you facing extinction.

I think that most fans recognise this and agree with Danson's view that we need to become increasingly self sufficient. But maybe not everyone appreciated how much much we outspent everyone in previous years so aren't quite sure exactly what sustainability will look like. Which is understandable, but going from such an advantage to a level playingfield may surprise some.
 
springy-park said:
I see the Premier League didn't want to spread anymore money to the
Lower League Clubs, they said that 'too many' EFL clubs have been badly run by Foreign owners.

We can't argue with that statement.
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The figure being discussed has been reported as high as 900m over 6 years sounds amazing on paper.

But looking at the sums and the current split which sees Championship clubs take home 4.8m per season (80%) , while L1 gets just 720k (13%) and L2 gets 420k (7%).

So quickly doing the sums it seems to works out that Champ clubs get about 200k more and L1 get about 100k more per season than they currently do. So it's seemingly not actually going to make a huge difference by the looks of it.
 
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springy-park said:
I see the Premier League didn't want to spread anymore money to the
Lower League Clubs, they said that 'too many' EFL clubs have been badly run by Foreign owners.

We can't argue with that statement.
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I think Premier League clubs also question why they should be passing money over to Stoke, because of the wealth of their owners.
 
springy-park said:
I see the Premier League didn't want to spread anymore money to the
Lower League Clubs, they said that 'too many' EFL clubs have been badly run by Foreign owners.

We can't argue with that statement.
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Bury's owner wasnt foreign.

Just because the owner is seriously rich doesnt mean they should be allowed to throw cash around like it doesnt matter, buying their way up the football pyramid. The introduction of FFP means the ability to do this is not as easy as it was a few years' ago. Clubs should be run within their means, and not be completely dependent on huge cash injections from owners on a monthly basis just to pay the wage bill that is double the turnover.
 
pie eater said:
Bury's owner wasnt foreign.

Just because the owner is seriously rich doesnt mean they should be allowed to throw cash around like it doesnt matter, buying their way up the football pyramid. The introduction of FFP means the ability to do this is not as easy as it was a few years' ago. Clubs should be run within their means, and not be completely dependent on huge cash injections from owners on a monthly basis just to pay the wage bill that is double the turnover.
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Some Premier League Clubs should follow your Advice.
 
pie eater said:
Bury's owner wasnt foreign.

Just because the owner is seriously rich doesnt mean they should be allowed to throw cash around like it doesnt matter, buying their way up the football pyramid. The introduction of FFP means the ability to do this is not as easy as it was a few years' ago. Clubs should be run within their means, and not be completely dependent on huge cash injections from owners on a monthly basis just to pay the wage bill that is double the turnover.
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More clubs and their owners should be prudent and only invest small amounts in players like Will Grigg when trying to buy themselves out of the lower leagues.
 
jeffs right said:
More clubs and their owners should be prudent and only invest small amounts in players like Will Grigg when trying to buy themselves out of the lower leagues.
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Now that was a sound investment for Latics and paid dividends.

Although coincidentally, isnt Will part of the highest transfer fee ever paid by an English third-division club that wasn't quite as shrewd?
 
It was a very good deal for Wigan. Pity the money was spunked away on Wyke, Toure and paying Liam Richardson to sit on his arse for 12 months.
 
pie eater said:
It was a very good deal for Wigan. Pity the money was spunked away on Wyke, Toure and paying Liam Richardson to sit on his arse for 12 months.
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I think there was an administration to be resolved before your fantasy view of history occurred.

Do you not understand company law or accountancy regulations.
 
The Prem literally split from the EFL all those years ago to ensure they are separate businesses and able to maximise their revenue rather than share it.

The new proposed redistribution model isn't going to change anything for EFL clubs, it's a drop in the ocean despite it being about 150m a year.

The level of redistribution required to do the type of reset Parry talks about would need to be so much bigger the Prem clubs will never agree to it and I'm not sure how a new legislator could be given the power to force the Prem a business to so massively subsidise a separate business in the EFL.
 
king_dezeeuw06 said:
The Prem literally split from the EFL all those years ago to ensure they are separate businesses and able to maximise their revenue rather than share it.

The new proposed redistribution model isn't going to change anything for EFL clubs, it's a drop in the ocean despite it being about 150m a year.

The level of redistribution required to do the type of reset Parry talks about would need to be so much bigger the Prem clubs will never agree to it and I'm not sure how a new legislator could be given the power to force the Prem a business to so massively subsidise a separate business in the EFL.
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This is sound reasoning, but with the proviso that this ‘separate business’ is to a large extent a fundamental, even critical component of the Premier League’s supply chain of playing, coaching and managerial resources as well as schooling their emerging players through loans.

There’s no doubting that ‘overseas’ has filled an increasing share of that supply chain but I doubt it could ever supplant it totally.
Even a host of youngsters initially rejected by Premier league clubs, re emerge at PL level after being picked up and developed by EFL clubs

The real concern regardless of which way the cat jumps on this is how poor the finances of all clubs are except the very small elite …and Premier or EFL clubs are usually skint and overspending on transfers, wages, agents etc regardless of how much money ultimately floods in.
 
daleks.at.the.monaco said:
I think there was an administration to be resolved before your fantasy view of history occurred.

Do you not understand company law or accountancy regulations.
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Perhaps you dont understand the way a transfer fee is paid in instalments. The final payment of £300,000 was made at the end of the 21/22 season when Wyke was being paid £15k a week and a few months before Liam was sacked and Kolo was appointed by Milky Brannigums and the 5 pens Bahrani Bullshitter.

Anyway, Grigg pales into insignificance compared to what was lost on Grant Holt. £28k a week and £2m transfer fee takes a heck of a lot of season tickets to cover that wage bill.
 
pie eater said:
Perhaps you dont understand the way a transfer fee is paid in instalments. The final payment of £300,000 was made at the end of the 21/22 season when Wyke was being paid £15k a week and a few months before Liam was sacked and Kolo was appointed by Milky Brannigums and the 5 pens Bahrani Bullshitter.

Anyway, Grigg pales into insignificance compared to what was lost on Grant Holt. £28k a week and £2m transfer fee takes a heck of a lot of season tickets to cover that wage bill.
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His wages & transfer fee were covered by parachute payments.
Who covered the Will Grigg transfer fee ?

backpagefootball.com

Premier League reveals payments made to clubs for 2015/16

The Premier League has today revealed the exact amount each club pocketed for the 2015/16, as well as parachute payments made to lower division sides.
backpagefootball.com backpagefootball.com
 
Zeb2 said:
This is sound reasoning, but with the proviso that this ‘separate business’ is to a large extent a fundamental, even critical component of the Premier League’s supply chain of playing, coaching and managerial resources as well as schooling their emerging players through loans.

There’s no doubting that ‘overseas’ has filled an increasing share of that supply chain but I doubt it could ever supplant it totally.
Even a host of youngsters initially rejected by Premier league clubs, re emerge at PL level after being picked up and developed by EFL clubs

The real concern regardless of which way the cat jumps on this is how poor the finances of all clubs are except the very small elite …and Premier or EFL clubs are usually skint and overspending on transfers, wages, agents etc regardless of how much money ultimately floods in.
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I agree it's a supply chain.

But from the Prem perspective they would argue that if they take EFL players they are paying significant transfer fees and the EFL clubs are benefiting from loaning their best young players. So they are going to argue that they shouldn't need to subsidise them beyond what they already do.

The level of financial redistribution to offset the loses EFL clubs are making is not something the Prem clubs will ever agree to. So I think they'll end up bringing in spending limits on EFL clubs which will force clubs to behave financially more responsibly, but will just see the gap between the Prem and EFL grow even further.

I think as the financial gulf widens, even between the top sides and everyone else within the Prem, another league restructuring or break away becomes increasingly likely. I think that eventually the European Super League concept that didn't happen probably comes back onto the agenda.
 
king_dezeeuw06 said:
But from the Prem perspective they would argue that if they take EFL players they are paying significant transfer fees and the EFL clubs are benefiting from loaning their best young players. So they are going to argue that they shouldn't need to subsidise them beyond what they already do.
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Sometimes, but the reverse is often true as well where they buy a promising EFL player for a few hundred grand or a couple of million and eventually sell them on for tens of millions ……further….whether they subsidise EFL clubs or not … the new player source will no longer be there if the EFL literally goes to rack and ruin
king_dezeeuw06 said:
I think as the financial gulf widens, even between the top sides and everyone else within the Prem, another league restructuring or break away becomes increasingly likely. I think that eventually the European Super League concept that didn't happen probably comes back onto the agenda.
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As outraged as I was by the prospect of a European Super League, I'm coming to the view that ‘the sooner it happens the better’ …the structure we and our parents/grandparents grew up with is on its last legs ….we’ll be arranging the funeral at some point.
Even within the Premier League you have clubs whose only realistic ambition is to continue to exist at the level (ie Crystal Palace …Wolves etc) or pray for an occasional cup run or if absolutely everything goes to plan a spot in the Europa Conference (W Ham/Brighton) or whatever it’s called.
The Leicester title win was a freak aberration and you can’t imagine anything like that happening again unless there is some fundamental shift away from ‘oil nation’ and multi billionaire ownership (not forgetting that Leicester’s owner was seriously wealthy)
Like I said earlier though you have to be concerned at football clubs wherever they are in the pyramid regardless of how much money comes in …they won’t be any richer as they’ll just spend everything and still be living hand to mouth or in debt. You could argue there are exceptions like Accrington who have tried to live more within their means but they know its likely this may eventually lead them back to the Conference ….but better that than the oblivion they found themselves in for decades?
 
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