Europe In Out Shake it all about | Page 199 | Vital Football

Europe In Out Shake it all about

The longer it drags out - as painful as it is - surely the narrow margin swings the other way. I read a headline earlier saying momentum has finally swung to remain - I would say now is only the first time I could believe that.
 
If it wasn't so serious it would be hilarious. If Yes Minister had written this script I'd have said it was too fictional and silly.

So now we aren't arguing about brexit, we're arguing about whether we have one document or two to vote over.
 
They are both playing semantics. They are both right and wrong in my reading.

Article 1 para 2, makes a differentiation without removing para 1's involvement.

KS is arguing the opposite but in his reference to May, it's perfectly plausible that one of the docs can be 'banked' in a different form, as long as the basic commitments of the other are still adhered to.

Commitments of a similar nature don't have to be identical in reality, yet can still be a package, whilst independent.

ie the Withdrawal agreement can still be agreed, with May's Deal, or Customs Union or whatever as an alternative (either plus second vote) - they are arguing the alternative, yet either (any/all) alternatives would still be grounded in similar commitments of sorts as per the legals.

Para 2's line about 'indicate a way forward...for consideration by the EU' is what's key here.
 
The fact remains that the government are still trying to push her agreement, which has been voted down twice by record numbers. Just splitting it up achieves nothing, absolutely nothing.
 
Yup, the line as ever is Starmer is a remainer, Cleverly is a leaver - so it's politics and bugger the country.

Splitting it, at least from what I've seen, could backfire though on May though as it still doesn't ensure her deal goes through (again arguably the best of a bad mix here but it's now dynamite) and with the second leg of the indicative votes to come on Monday - potentially May's deal could now go down for a third time and there will be a groundswell for whatever wins on Monday to now be latched to para 1 in effect, to create the package.

And that's the route forward.

She may lose the chance to say her deal + confirmatory vote, and Parliament can push through a second best deal to replace it - even if second best is cleaner politically, but not as sensible from a country point of view.
 
mike_field said:
Yup, the line as ever is Starmer is a remainer, Cleverly is a leaver - so it's politics and bugger the country.
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It's what we're down to now isn't it? Trying to sow the seeds ahead of the next election, which will blatantly not be in 2022!

Splitting it, at least from what I've seen, could backfire though on May though as it still doesn't ensure her deal goes through (again arguably the best of a bad mix here but it's now dynamite) and with the second leg of the indicative votes to come on Monday - potentially May's deal could now go down for a third time and there will be a groundswell for whatever wins on Monday to now be latched to para 1 in effect, to create the package.
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DUP won't vote for it, oppo parties (including TIG) say they won't (although some in Labour are total loose cannons) so I just don't see she has the numbers - no way will ALL other Tories vote with the government.

Chaos, debacle, shambles, fiasco - none of these cover it do they?
 
In a way, I would love it (Keegan style) if we woke up tomorrow to the news that the government had in fact withdrawn the extension request and we were going to leave tomorrow as planned.

That would be fun.
 
Yup, it's all positioning and political gaming and it's so clear, yet they all (good and bad) deny it like they are of superior intelligence and they claim the public aren't dumb, yet treat us as being dumb by their very denials. (well in fairness, some are lol).

This is where I see the backfire, a customs union doesn't solve 100% the backstop, but it's far more favourable depending on the terms of a 'full custom union' I think. So I can see the DUP deciding the cashcow is a busted flush, and pushing their support behind a new answer to the question, so to speak.

She certainly doesn't have the numbers even if we agree, it'll now be a closer vote. So lose again, and she's out of the equation and it only needs a narrow victory on one of the top three and by default that becomes the way forward now.

100% though JPA, there aren't the words for this. All for a Tory vanity project to try and solidify their position in power.:censor::censor::rant:
 
JuanPabloAngel said:
In a way, I would love it (Keegan style) if we woke up tomorrow to the news that the government had in fact withdrawn the extension request and we were going to leave tomorrow as planned.

That would be fun.
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I can see the attraction as an end point.

But throughout all of this bollocks, I've not been thinking of me, I'm thinking of my kids (as I'm sure many are whether their own, or nieces/nephews etc) and what they are being saddled with.
 
If what is agreed Monday has a majority, be it a customs union or another referendum is against the tory manifesto the crap will hit the fan. The MP,s are threatening to legislate for it. In that case they will have to call an election.
 
mike_field said:
I can see the attraction as an end point.

But throughout all of this bollocks, I've not been thinking of me, I'm thinking of my kids (as I'm sure many are whether their own, or nieces/nephews etc) and what they are being saddled with.
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I was only half-serious, but I am just so, so bored now.

I'm massively pro-Europe (obviously) but I quite agree that the effects will be more on my boys in the long run. Hopefully, if we do leave, we'll see sense again in years to come and get back in, albeit with reduced influence I would think.
 
I saw an interesting tweet earlier from a Labour MP who'd been speaking with a Tory colleague, who said that when TM said she wouldn't lead them into another election (a while back now, if memory serves) she was speaking about 2022 under the Fixed Term Act.

Nothing to stop her calling a snap election (with parliament votes, obvs) in the meantime and sticking around. Although surely not even TM can be that power-hungry, self-obsessed and out of touch?
 
Old Trinity Villain said:
If what is agreed Monday has a majority, be it a customs union or another referendum is against the tory manifesto the crap will hit the fan. The MP,s are threatening to legislate for it. In that case they will have to call an election.
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They don't, contrary to the claims of some MP's a manifesto is not legally binding and nor is a referendum mate.
 
JuanPabloAngel said:
I was only half-serious, but I am just so, so bored now.

I'm massively pro-Europe (obviously) but I quite agree that the effects will be more on my boys in the long run. Hopefully, if we do leave, we'll see sense again in years to come and get back in, albeit with reduced influence I would think.
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Hence my comment that it's attractive to be done with it lol

It'll be reversed, there's no doubt about that 10/20 years whatever, but the deal won't be as good as now (despite the current deal having flaws).
 
JuanPabloAngel said:
I saw an interesting tweet earlier from a Labour MP who'd been speaking with a Tory colleague, who said that when TM said she wouldn't lead them into another election (a while back now, if memory serves) she was speaking about 2022 under the Fixed Term Act.

Nothing to stop her calling a snap election (with parliament votes, obvs) in the meantime and sticking around. Although surely not even TM can be that power-hungry, self-obsessed and out of touch?
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That would fly in the face of her comments though, as on anyone's understanding 'another election' isn't time limited. But it loops to her comments of May deal gets through, I quit. If it doesn't will she remain.

Plenty have commented the position has now blinded her, why wouldn't she hold on unless she thought she'd go out with a bang and praise.
 
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