ECHR N/G | Page 8 | Vital Football

ECHR N/G

Yeah, I deleted it because I already said that I ain't getting into this, no matter how much you try to provoke me into with accusations, implications or insinuations.

I don't trust your motives. Or valencia's. I'm only up for for discussing this with people whose motives I trust to be honest.

I assumed you deleted it as you said you were part of the 99.99% uninformed and uneducated people who went with the dictionary definition I put up (and therefore that you weren't a i.p. fascist).

It shows your state of mind that me posting up a screenshot of the definition of a word from the English Oxford Dictionary is considered an attempt to provoke.
 
Stop it, just because Buddha is an anarchist doesn't mean he has to agree with every other anarchist or anarchist group. He has been quite clear in saying he doesn't want to discuss the incident in Bristol.
 
I'm not bothered about your opinion of me as a person, whether or not you think I have virtuous principles or whether or not you think that I present myself as having them. That is irrelevant. I reckon that if you met me you'd not think I'm a bad bloke. Our politics are quite different but there is some overlap and common ground.

I'm not sure about this ever changing word definition thing though. I think maybe there is some difference between your definitions and mine. If there is any confusion of definition from me it'll be more likely due to a failure to adequately articulate my thoughts and express my feelings, than because of some kind of skilful intellectual sophistry. Nevertheless, I will try harder as I am keen for you to understand me even when you don't agree with me.



No, that's not true or fair. I fully support freedom of speech, thought and expression. Even when what's being said, thought or expressed goes against everything I believe in. I don't believe in banning posters on here or of banning of pretty much most things. I definitely oppose any notion of thought-crime, and I'm not too keen on political correctness.

I do however retain the right to shout back loudly with foul and abusive language when someone or some people use their freedom to expresses ideas that I find to be repugnant or obnoxious or racist or whatever (not literally!). Whether or not my voice then in turn gets shouted down, depends upon who else is in on the conversation and how they themselves choose to (or choose not to) respond. Of course, this works both ways and whenever I express views that others find to be repugnant or obnoxious I respect their right to shout me down with foul and abusive language. I expect that sometimes I'd deserve it!

Lots of people would disagree with me. Most of them are neither fascist or scum. Those who are scum aint necessarily fascist, but those who are fascist are definitely scum. (I'm imagining a Venn diagram here - ooh, it could be a double!!)



Ok, so this is what I meant when I said above that our politics overlap. We both place emphasis upon individual liberty and this is why we both entirely reject communism (because of its totalitarian nature). I'm not sure if you're anti-statist but I would guess that at the very least you would advocate minimal state intervention with regard to individual freedom.* Again, this would be similar to my views

I agree wholeheartedly with the core tenant, "do no harm to others". You can claim it as Libertarian if you want but I'd say it's also a core tenant of anarchism. It's also a core tenant of a whole host of religions and philosophies. Actually, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anybody who would openly disagree with the sentiment. So it's a great principle that we could and should all follow. Problem is that it becomes difficult to do so in a capitalist society where profit is more important than people or planet; where looking after number one becomes, necessarily, more important than looking after each other and our environment.

You see, where we differ is in our attitudes towards capitalism. You see you're not just a libertarian, you're actually a 'Libertarian Capitalist' or a 'right-wing Libertarian'. I'm libertarian too, but I'm also anti-capitalist. I think the freedom of capitalism is far more preferable than the slavery of totalitarianism but ultimately it just aint the real thing, it's only an illusion, not real freedom. There seems little point in arguing about it. I doubt we'd change each other's minds. But this is where we disagree, not on the importance of individual freedom.

* At this point I wonder what your position is with regard to the prohibition of drugs? But I don't want to distract you so don't bother telling me now!



This is just a different analysis of capitalism. I'm happy to have a debate about capitalism with you on a different thread some time but not here, not now.



No, I don't care about outcomes being different. Rather I care about equality of opportunity and I resent privilege (my own and that of others). I believe that if individuals have freedom without responsibility to their community and each other, before too long society becomes riddled with privilege and injustice.

The bit you've put in bold, if you changed "socialism" to "totalitarian communism", I'd agree with you entirely. Using the term "socialism" is ambiguous and once again leads us down a road of semantics, definitions and confusion. Broadly speaking though I do understand what you're getting at. Remember, I'm an anarchist not a socialist. So although I am sympathetic to many socialist ideas and values, where I am at odds with them is almost always in relation to ideas regarding liberty and authority.



Nope, again that's not true. Already dealt with this accusation. Next.



This aint a serious question is it?! Tbh I don't watch much football. It doesn't excite me the way it did when I was a kid and very rarely will I watch a game on tv these days. It's only really the Gills that bothers me and in a way that's kind of an affliction and addiction that I've had for most of my life. I've tried to shake it and have periods of abstinence but I'm hooked for life (Gillingham til I die, lol) whether I like it or not.

With regards to my, or anybody's, opposition to capitalism, I really fail to see how that must preclude them from watching football. A couple of observations I have made over the years though, are that I find more right-wing views emanating from football fans than I do in any other aspect of my life, and amongst my anarchist/socialist/anti-capitalist mates, only a small minority are interested in watching football. Again, not scientific so make of it what you will.



Yes, I'm glad that we can agree about the need for us all to co-operate.

We can't agree that that is how free market capitalism works. I can accept that you think it does. You must accept that I think it doesn't.

We can definitely agree that those who acquire less are not automatically "losers". But can we also agree that those with privilege are far more likely than those without to become, "winners"?



Yes, of course. So we agree on that too! Anarchists aren't interested in some idealistic, remote, amorphous "collective", rather we are interested in creating very real autonomous spaces where the community can participate in and experience the benefits from mutual aid and co-operation. I think maybe you're getting us confused with the Communists again!
Thank you for what is a much more considered reply - point by point.

Please forgive me if I come back on this:
"I do however retain the right to shout back loudly with foul and abusive language"

"shouting back ...with ...abusive" may be fair enough.
Not sure that initiating abuse counts though.:oops:

Also, I note your persistent and obsessive diversion to "fascists" - and object to your conflating with "far right".

Still not sure you have defined either "fascist" or "far right".....

......But if your immediately following post counts as a definition, then many would find it objectionable and insulting.
 
Far right are the racists, fascists, nazis, neo-nazis, alt-Right, Libertarian-Right.
And here is our problem.
You conflate unrelated viewpoints as "far right".

Such conflation puts you firmly in the camp of lefty activists who think "I oppose this, so I will use the most extreme term to de-legitimise my opponent."

How on earth you conflate "libertarian right" with "racist" is bizarre.
You accept that libertarians fall back on "do no harm to others" - which is about as anti-racist as one can get.

And perhaps we should hear your definition of "alt-right".
Surely it is more about economics ?
i..e. Please explain what is bad about "alt right".

Far left are the Marxists, Communists, Trots and, if you like, Anarchists and Syndicalists.

I would add....
All lefties seek to control others - to varying degrees - so are Authoritarian
"Far Left" should mean "Dictatorial". i.e. using force (or threat) to ensure compliance.

Thus "Far right" should mean ultra-libertarian.
But because the left wish to control others, they do what the left often do - redefine words - especially around opponents.:wagging:

(Recent example: "Cat-calling" being described as "misogynist".
Cat-calling may be sexist - but the motive is not one of "hate"
.)
 
but who exactly are the left?
Authoritarians.

In order to achieve their goal of "equality" (which emphasises outcomes rather than opportunity) it is necessary to direct the behaviour, speech and thought of others.

If they can, they will create laws to do that.
If not, they bully and threaten.
 
Authoritarians.

In order to achieve their goal of "equality" (which emphasises outcomes rather than opportunity) it is necessary to direct the behaviour, speech and thought of others.

If they can, they will create laws to do that.
If not, they bully and threaten.

that only describes elements of the left. As i said, its a circle with no clear cut unchanging definition.
 
Yeah, I deleted it because I already said that I ain't getting into this, no matter how much you try to provoke me into with accusations, implications or insinuations.

I don't trust your motives. Or valencia's. I'm only up for for discussing this with people whose motives I trust to be honest.
"Motives" ?

So when an interviewee uses the phrase:
"Gender assigned at birth", what "motive" would you attribute to that interviewee ?

(To most people "assigned at birth" conjures up an image of midwives randomly "assigning" a sex based on a whim - rather than observable biological fact ! :oops: )
 
that only describes elements of the left. As i said, its a circle with no clear cut unchanging definition.
Respectfully, I disagree with the "circle" description.

Clearly the left has different "elements".
They differ in how far they would go to mould society.
i.e. they differ in degrees of authoritarianism

Even a "libertarian" accepts the need for some "rules". Just as few as possible.
e.g. Those that prevent one (fake) "libertarian" harming others.

How can an "extremist" for freedom come round in a circle to be a hair's breadth away from a full-on dictator ?
 
Authoritarians.

In order to achieve their goal of "equality" (which emphasises outcomes rather than opportunity) it is necessary to direct the behaviour, speech and thought of others.

If they can, they will create laws to do that.
If not, they bully and threaten.

If that is your definition of the left then I am scratching my head to work out who, exactly, is in power now then.
 
This incident (in Bristol) sounds nasty. The local rag have reported a minute by minute account of the day as it unfolded and at 16.22 this happened 😳

Tensions at pub


It's been reported that some protesters are now blocked in the Slug and Lettuce.

Apparently protesters were shouting through the window that they were going to leave poor reviews for the pub, for harbouring the Transphobic, Islamaphobic racists.

🙄🥱
 
This incident (in Bristol) sounds nasty. The local rag have reported a minute by minute account of the day as it unfolded and at 16.22 this happened 😳

Tensions at pub


It's been reported that some protesters are now blocked in the Slug and Lettuce.

Ah. I assume this is what Valencia was actually referring to. I saw Bristol and protests and assumed the locals were pulling down another random statue.
 
Ah. I assume this is what Valencia was actually referring to. I saw Bristol and protests and assumed the locals were pulling down another random statue.
I'm guessing it's the same one, just Googled "demo bristol" and this came up.
What interested me was that it's women who are objecting to trans women. I suppose the crusty dinosaur in me assumed it was just good old geezers that thought it wrong (not that I do btw but I've only ever heard blokes comment in the subject)
What I do find difficult is the whole pronoun thing. A colleague got a complaint as he asked another colleague to "show this lady through to the waiting room". She, (sorry, they) complained as they identified as gender queer so wished to be referred to as they/them.
That's fine, no problem, but how is one supposed to know? If I referred to a straight woman as "they" or "them", the polite old school gent in me thinks it would sound rude, as would she (probably). 🙄
 
Respectfully, I disagree with the "circle" description.

Clearly the left has different "elements".
They differ in how far they would go to mould society.
i.e. they differ in degrees of authoritarianism

Even a "libertarian" accepts the need for some "rules". Just as few as possible.
e.g. Those that prevent one (fake) "libertarian" harming others.

How can an "extremist" for freedom come round in a circle to be a hair's breadth away from a full-on dictator ?

study history, happens to many as they need to impose their 'freedom' on others for their own good or enlightenment. In fact people may need to be punished to set them free.
its not a political spectrum thing - its a human being thing.
 
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I'm guessing it's the same one, just Googled "demo bristol" and this came up.
What interested me was that it's women who are objecting to trans women. I suppose the crusty dinosaur in me assumed it was just good old geezers that thought it wrong (not that I do btw but I've only ever heard blokes comment in the subject)
What I do find difficult is the whole pronoun thing. A colleague got a complaint as he asked another colleague to "show this lady through to the waiting room". She, (sorry, they) complained as they identified as gender queer so wished to be referred to as they/them.
That's fine, no problem, but how is one supposed to know? If I referred to a straight woman as "they" or "them", the polite old school gent in me thinks it would sound rude, as would she (probably). 🙄

in ottawa canada it would be illegal for you to have not used their preferred pronoun.
In other news today 'the emporer has no clothes'.

i believe part of the issue (according to counter protestors) was that the organiser was calling for extermination of trans types. If so i would have thought that would come under a hate crime.
 
If that is your definition of the left then I am scratching my head to work out who, exactly, is in power now then.
Easy.
We currently have a slightly less Authoritarian Government than Labour would be.

(And given Labour's record of saying "never enough" and "more" to Lockdown....., and their support for Woke and Cancel Culture, their enthusiastic support for the existence of "thought crimes", there really should be little argument about Labour's Authoritarian leanings.)
 
I A colleague got a complaint as he asked another colleague to "show this lady through to the waiting room".
She, (sorry, they) complained as they identified as gender queer so wished to be referred to as they/them. 🙄
I think I would have asked where their fellow / guest / partner is.

If somebody chooses to take offence at another person trying to be polite - then it's probably not worth wasting any more time with that individual.

After being lectured, perhaps your polite colleague should have responded with:
"Please don't be offensive"
(Given that woke activists are forever warning against "offence", that often stumps them !)

The problem for most people is that they rarely encounter this sort of nonsense - so are unprepared with the right language.
(And by "right language", I don't mean pandering to nonsense.)

Anyway, what is "gender queer" ? :oops: