ZAKKY
Vital Football Hero
Time will tell but if it goes pear shaped they will be loath to sack him.
If you are happy with his tactics that's fine it's all about opinions not towing the company line. ( Not that I'm referring to you bye the way)
Dingles on Satdy
- Thread starter jeffs right
- Start date
Time will tell but if it goes pear shaped they will be loath to sack him.
If you are happy with his tactics that's fine it's all about opinions not towing the company line. ( Not that I'm referring to you bye the way)
Made in Wigan
Vital Champions League
He’s demonstrated he can operate at both ends of the table - and on both occasions probably exceeded expectations - so he isn’t going to be sacked if we lose a few games, especially as you tell us the players aren’t good enough for this level. The tactics didn’t work yesterday, but have worked on many more occasions than they haven’t. Seems a tad harsh to draw a conclusive is tactically inept after one defeat despite all the past success. Mind you there were dippers on the radio the other day claiming Klopp was the same and wanted him gone - then they bagged 9 yesterday. Perhaps they may be thankful he wasn’t sacked Tuesday morning after all.
N"Zogbia's fan club
Vital Squad Member
Me. I do go to Specs Savers as I get 2 for the price of one. And I get 2 new pairs of specs annually.
And I'm realistic about where WAFC was and are now.
N"Zogbia's fan club
Vital Squad Member
king_dezeeuw06
Vital Champions League
Burnley are a good side who play football how it should be played. Their previous performances showed if you give them the chance they can punish you badly but they are also a work in progress and vulnerable - Blackpool showed that last week. Unfortunately I think we got our team selection wrong and didn't give ourselves the best chance to get something from the game.
We started very slow and the first 2 goals were defensively poor, it was frustrating that for all of Burnley posession we had done quite well to limit them creatively yet then concede like that. But we were never really in the game and constantly long balling it just giving them the ball straight back to come at us over and over. I felt it was clearly not working and we could've made some changes even in the first half.
Our penalty was a life line and came from probably the only decent long ball of the first half and Langs run. Had that call been given against us I'd have been very unhappy, so I felt we were probably a bit fortunate as Lang had already played the ball towards goal before the keeper clattered him. Our luck extended to the penalty itself as it wasn't a great pen and hitting the keepers legs it could have easily bounced out than in off him. But it lifted us and we found some urgency and positvity that we'd been lacking all game and suddenly Burnley didn't look that special and we looked like a different team.
By half time we had got on top and it seemed that our fighting spirit might be able to repeat Blackpools come back the week prior. I thought we were crying out for some changes but we still started the second half decent and should've equalised when the ball fell perfectly for Keane but he strangely went for placement instead of power and still missed the target.
Immediately they went up the other end and scored a third that was offside. It came at a crucial time, it swung momentum away from us and we never got it back. The mistake settled the game and it's always hard to take when you effectively lose a game on a bad decision. Maybe Burnley would've still won if the linesman had flagged but goals change games and that killed our chance.
The last 2 goals are kind of irrelevant as we were pushing on trying to get back into the game and got caught. If we weren't pushing so hard we'd not have been so open.
The 5-1 score line in the end I felt was deceptive as they didn't tell the full story. The coaching staff and players made a lot of mistakes but if it wasn't for some poor finishing and bad officiating then we may have got something out of the game.
The team selection was unconvincing, it looked like we were frightened / showed way too much respect of them with 3 def mids on top of a back 3 with no target man despite us going long all the time. It was also strangr the 2 strikers who won the last game ommitted for 2 attacking mid up front who struggled this and last season as a pair to lead the line with the direct way we play. If that unorthodox line up worked then you say tactical master stroke but when it didn't it looks like it was always the wrong choice that went as expected.
I was hoping for a switch to wing backs as I feel that we've generally tried to hoof it less and play through midfield but unfortunately the way we played it yesterday was all over the place and we just kept going long to no one anyway. I'd have started Nyambe as right sided centre half after he did well last week and was willing to join attacks from CB rather than rush Tilt back who looked rusty. I'd have also Wyke and Broadhead start as a pair up top after last week (if Wyke not able to start then Magennis for target man) then probably Keane sitting deeper in midfield or alternately Lang and Broadhead sitting in attacking mid behind the target man.
We're realistic enough to know it's not wise to go toe to toe with a better side like Burnley, of course you have to stop them playing before you can play yourself. But I thought we were far too pessimistic in our approach, we looked like we were set up just to contain them and not really try to hurt them. You could argue we've done that in other games too this season and it worked but I think this was our most negative set up and it's a balancing act.
The reoccurring problem that we've had from the start of last season is our method of play - long ball can be an effective way of playing but you have to do certain things to make it work and we dont do them enough. We rarely have anyone who gets close to the target man for knock downs or runs beyond him for a flick on so the majority of our long balls end up surrendering posession back to the opposition even if the target man wins it. Last week Broadhead made a long ball work by making the run giving Wyke an option but we need so much more of that as too often our target man is isolated.
But the other thing is most teams press you high so if we are trying to pass out through the press there are things you need to do and we aren't doing enough of that either. We so often lack any movement off the ball in midfield and so few players coming short or showing for the ball to try and play out. So if the keeper plays the ball to a defender they are pressured and often have no option but to launch it long. There was a spell towards the end of last season it seemed like we were trying to avoid going long and trying to play a bit more football and had a better mix to our play - there was progress for sure. But we seem to have done less of that since being promoted when we needed to do more of it. It's not a case of trying to transform our style of play to something we've never done, as we've seen in patches when we get that urgency, be more positive on the ball and up the tempo we are capable of playing some very decent stuff. But it so often seems we start really slow and we only find that after we get in trouble or towards the end of games.
Last season we were the fittest, hardest working, best battlers with bags of spirit and we have carried those fantastic attributes into this season. Our method of play wasn't that great but it wasn't too big an issue as we had better players individually capable of creating something from nothing or going up the gears and blitzing teams if we went a goal or 2 down. But this year it's the same style of play but the opposition has gone from generally inferior to superior so those moments of individual magic aren't as reliable to happen and if we go a goal or 2 down it's so much harder to come back. We have to start faster and get a lot better at long ball or at passing it out from the back as at this level you can't afford to give the opposition posession back as often and easily as we do. It suits the opposition more than it suits us.
Overall I felt it was quite frustrating, not because we lost as you have to appreciate they are a good side who will be up there but I felt we made bad choices tactically that didn't give us the best chance to get something out of the game.
We could and should've done better than that but it's a real shot accross the bowes - we have to evolve and adapt our style of play for this level. Richardson has been very loyal to his first 11 and reluctant to even sub many of them but I think it's probably time we see some other lads given a start for West Brom.
Individually
Jones - don't think he really had much chance on any of the goals.
Darikwa - got done for second goal, unfortunately looking like a serious shoulder injury.
Tilt - looked a bit off the pace
Whatmough - toughest afternoon so far, both him and Tilt probably guilt of ball watching a bit for first goal.
Kerr - like Whatmough hardest day so far, didn't do enough to stop cross for first goal.
McClean - put in a few decent balls but he's not taking on his man much anymore. Got badly caught out of posession for the 4th goal. May be time to give Pearce a try as wing back or Aasgaard a try on the left wing?
Power - great curling ball into channel for the penalty but not much else, quiet game by his standards.
Naylor - really struggled, bad mistake for their 5th goal and most of his passes were backwards. He's capable of more in posession but he just doesn't look like he wants the ball. Power and defenders need him to show for the ball a lot more. Thought he should've gone off instead of Shinnie.
Shinnie - I thought it was a bit strange he was playing in front of Power and Naylor and closer to the front 2 as that's not really his natural role but I thought he did reasonably well. It doesn't seem there's much point to playing him and Naylor in the same side, but for me he did enough to deserve a start against West Brom maybe at the expense of Naylor.
Keane - you get the odd flash of brilliance when he drops a bit deeper but I think always struggles leading the line trying to make anything of our long ball / lack of service. Costly miss that changed the game directly before they scored. I think he's a far better creative attacking mid than a forward. For me Keane's not a striker at this level.
Lang - a real mixed bag, at times was our main threat and caused them problems with his direct running, superb run to win pen and put in great cross for Magennis. But had a number of occasions where he frustratingly opted to shoot when others were far better placed. We are getting flashes of his quality but not enough yet.
Nyambe - looked a bit reluctant to get forward and put crosses in at times. In our system where we rely on full / wing backs to provide all the width and crosses he's not the best fit there. Probably better suited to right sided CB of a back 3 than a wing back.
Aasgaard, Magennis, Broadhead had a couple of moments between them but probably all brought on too late to really change the game.
We started very slow and the first 2 goals were defensively poor, it was frustrating that for all of Burnley posession we had done quite well to limit them creatively yet then concede like that. But we were never really in the game and constantly long balling it just giving them the ball straight back to come at us over and over. I felt it was clearly not working and we could've made some changes even in the first half.
Our penalty was a life line and came from probably the only decent long ball of the first half and Langs run. Had that call been given against us I'd have been very unhappy, so I felt we were probably a bit fortunate as Lang had already played the ball towards goal before the keeper clattered him. Our luck extended to the penalty itself as it wasn't a great pen and hitting the keepers legs it could have easily bounced out than in off him. But it lifted us and we found some urgency and positvity that we'd been lacking all game and suddenly Burnley didn't look that special and we looked like a different team.
By half time we had got on top and it seemed that our fighting spirit might be able to repeat Blackpools come back the week prior. I thought we were crying out for some changes but we still started the second half decent and should've equalised when the ball fell perfectly for Keane but he strangely went for placement instead of power and still missed the target.
Immediately they went up the other end and scored a third that was offside. It came at a crucial time, it swung momentum away from us and we never got it back. The mistake settled the game and it's always hard to take when you effectively lose a game on a bad decision. Maybe Burnley would've still won if the linesman had flagged but goals change games and that killed our chance.
The last 2 goals are kind of irrelevant as we were pushing on trying to get back into the game and got caught. If we weren't pushing so hard we'd not have been so open.
The 5-1 score line in the end I felt was deceptive as they didn't tell the full story. The coaching staff and players made a lot of mistakes but if it wasn't for some poor finishing and bad officiating then we may have got something out of the game.
The team selection was unconvincing, it looked like we were frightened / showed way too much respect of them with 3 def mids on top of a back 3 with no target man despite us going long all the time. It was also strangr the 2 strikers who won the last game ommitted for 2 attacking mid up front who struggled this and last season as a pair to lead the line with the direct way we play. If that unorthodox line up worked then you say tactical master stroke but when it didn't it looks like it was always the wrong choice that went as expected.
I was hoping for a switch to wing backs as I feel that we've generally tried to hoof it less and play through midfield but unfortunately the way we played it yesterday was all over the place and we just kept going long to no one anyway. I'd have started Nyambe as right sided centre half after he did well last week and was willing to join attacks from CB rather than rush Tilt back who looked rusty. I'd have also Wyke and Broadhead start as a pair up top after last week (if Wyke not able to start then Magennis for target man) then probably Keane sitting deeper in midfield or alternately Lang and Broadhead sitting in attacking mid behind the target man.
We're realistic enough to know it's not wise to go toe to toe with a better side like Burnley, of course you have to stop them playing before you can play yourself. But I thought we were far too pessimistic in our approach, we looked like we were set up just to contain them and not really try to hurt them. You could argue we've done that in other games too this season and it worked but I think this was our most negative set up and it's a balancing act.
The reoccurring problem that we've had from the start of last season is our method of play - long ball can be an effective way of playing but you have to do certain things to make it work and we dont do them enough. We rarely have anyone who gets close to the target man for knock downs or runs beyond him for a flick on so the majority of our long balls end up surrendering posession back to the opposition even if the target man wins it. Last week Broadhead made a long ball work by making the run giving Wyke an option but we need so much more of that as too often our target man is isolated.
But the other thing is most teams press you high so if we are trying to pass out through the press there are things you need to do and we aren't doing enough of that either. We so often lack any movement off the ball in midfield and so few players coming short or showing for the ball to try and play out. So if the keeper plays the ball to a defender they are pressured and often have no option but to launch it long. There was a spell towards the end of last season it seemed like we were trying to avoid going long and trying to play a bit more football and had a better mix to our play - there was progress for sure. But we seem to have done less of that since being promoted when we needed to do more of it. It's not a case of trying to transform our style of play to something we've never done, as we've seen in patches when we get that urgency, be more positive on the ball and up the tempo we are capable of playing some very decent stuff. But it so often seems we start really slow and we only find that after we get in trouble or towards the end of games.
Last season we were the fittest, hardest working, best battlers with bags of spirit and we have carried those fantastic attributes into this season. Our method of play wasn't that great but it wasn't too big an issue as we had better players individually capable of creating something from nothing or going up the gears and blitzing teams if we went a goal or 2 down. But this year it's the same style of play but the opposition has gone from generally inferior to superior so those moments of individual magic aren't as reliable to happen and if we go a goal or 2 down it's so much harder to come back. We have to start faster and get a lot better at long ball or at passing it out from the back as at this level you can't afford to give the opposition posession back as often and easily as we do. It suits the opposition more than it suits us.
Overall I felt it was quite frustrating, not because we lost as you have to appreciate they are a good side who will be up there but I felt we made bad choices tactically that didn't give us the best chance to get something out of the game.
We could and should've done better than that but it's a real shot accross the bowes - we have to evolve and adapt our style of play for this level. Richardson has been very loyal to his first 11 and reluctant to even sub many of them but I think it's probably time we see some other lads given a start for West Brom.
Individually
Jones - don't think he really had much chance on any of the goals.
Darikwa - got done for second goal, unfortunately looking like a serious shoulder injury.
Tilt - looked a bit off the pace
Whatmough - toughest afternoon so far, both him and Tilt probably guilt of ball watching a bit for first goal.
Kerr - like Whatmough hardest day so far, didn't do enough to stop cross for first goal.
McClean - put in a few decent balls but he's not taking on his man much anymore. Got badly caught out of posession for the 4th goal. May be time to give Pearce a try as wing back or Aasgaard a try on the left wing?
Power - great curling ball into channel for the penalty but not much else, quiet game by his standards.
Naylor - really struggled, bad mistake for their 5th goal and most of his passes were backwards. He's capable of more in posession but he just doesn't look like he wants the ball. Power and defenders need him to show for the ball a lot more. Thought he should've gone off instead of Shinnie.
Shinnie - I thought it was a bit strange he was playing in front of Power and Naylor and closer to the front 2 as that's not really his natural role but I thought he did reasonably well. It doesn't seem there's much point to playing him and Naylor in the same side, but for me he did enough to deserve a start against West Brom maybe at the expense of Naylor.
Keane - you get the odd flash of brilliance when he drops a bit deeper but I think always struggles leading the line trying to make anything of our long ball / lack of service. Costly miss that changed the game directly before they scored. I think he's a far better creative attacking mid than a forward. For me Keane's not a striker at this level.
Lang - a real mixed bag, at times was our main threat and caused them problems with his direct running, superb run to win pen and put in great cross for Magennis. But had a number of occasions where he frustratingly opted to shoot when others were far better placed. We are getting flashes of his quality but not enough yet.
Nyambe - looked a bit reluctant to get forward and put crosses in at times. In our system where we rely on full / wing backs to provide all the width and crosses he's not the best fit there. Probably better suited to right sided CB of a back 3 than a wing back.
Aasgaard, Magennis, Broadhead had a couple of moments between them but probably all brought on too late to really change the game.
king_dezeeuw06
Vital Champions League
Richardson has obviously done well in the tough circumstances of admin and then he did well with the benefit of a very strong squad in L1. 2 completely different scenarios.
But this year is another completely different set of circumstances - competing against far better players and managers. So his tactical ability is going to be really put to the test like never before.
I think there are going to be question marks for sure, we just have to hope that he has the answers.
R
removed at members request
Guest
A harsh lesson Saturday, someone mentioned that it was Premier League vs League One masquerading as a Championship fixture and I'd agree with that. Liam Brownhill and Jack Cork are a Premier League midfield pairing and they were up against Tom Naylor and Max Power, who are a midfield pairing straight outta L1. It was painful watching them consistently play forward passes straight through our midfield, whilst we were forced to go long because our midfielders just don't have the ability to play similar passes. That and going forward was where they won the game, with the excellent Tella and experienced Jay Rod giving Kerr and Whatmough nightmares all afternoon. I don't think changing to three at the back was the right call after the pair played so well together as a two vs Birmingham but I understand why the manager did it. The scoreline doesn't really bother me either, we went for broke and were left exposed, shit happens. Would rather go down swinging than not.
We created openings as well, but that's all they were and all they ever will be whilst we persist with our current attacking players. Will Keane will never change, he will continue to miss at least one massive chance a game and in the unforgiving world of the Championship we will be mercilessly punished for it. Lang continues to show the composure of a fox in a chicken coop whenever he comes anywhere near the opposition goal and the amount of openings that we never converted into chances because he fucked it up was infuriating.
Word on McClean, god bless him he runs his bollocks off for 90 minutes and can take a mean corner. But he's one dimensional and can't beat a man. For me he's not good enough to play on the left of an attacking midfield three at this level. He should either play left back, left wing-back or not at all.
Until the attack is significantly freshened up, we'll struggle to pick up points because one goal a game more than often won't be enough in the Championship.
We created openings as well, but that's all they were and all they ever will be whilst we persist with our current attacking players. Will Keane will never change, he will continue to miss at least one massive chance a game and in the unforgiving world of the Championship we will be mercilessly punished for it. Lang continues to show the composure of a fox in a chicken coop whenever he comes anywhere near the opposition goal and the amount of openings that we never converted into chances because he fucked it up was infuriating.
Word on McClean, god bless him he runs his bollocks off for 90 minutes and can take a mean corner. But he's one dimensional and can't beat a man. For me he's not good enough to play on the left of an attacking midfield three at this level. He should either play left back, left wing-back or not at all.
Until the attack is significantly freshened up, we'll struggle to pick up points because one goal a game more than often won't be enough in the Championship.
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moonay
Vital Football Legend
Question marks re the future, for sure ... but even if he's found wanting, he'd still be a million miles away from tactically inept.
Limited, maybe, headstrong, possibly, inept,never.
hindleymonwafc
Vital Champions League
Yes and that's why someone reading the stats on the game would get totally the wrong idea of how the game went. In reality we were schooled all over the park in pass and move which we did none. CL is correct in his assessment but tomorrow is another day and another chance to rectify.
moonay
Vital Football Legend
"Schooled all over the park"? Not in their defence we weren't.
I don't get why we simply can't play poorly (yet still might have taken something from the game) without it being deemed apocalyptic.
Fully agree re tomorrow..
hindleymonwafc
Vital Champions League
They passed out from defence all day without us hindering much. Our only avenue of success was on some of our only option 70 yard punts where we hoped for clangers they occasionally obliged.
And that's it.
moonay
Vital Football Legend
Yep, I agree they did that ... but they also let us create a significant amount of chances, which (I think we all agree) we should have done better with.
hindleymonwafc
Vital Champions League
Hope springs eternal and if we perform tomorrow Saturday will fade in the memory.
Who in their right mind would willingly put themselves through this every week ?
jeffs right
Vital Football Hero
I think most of us who come on here have done for many a year.
springy-park
Vital 1st Team Regular
Wigan Athletic boss plots Ashley Fletcher route.
https://www.wigantoday.net/sport/football/wigan-athletic-boss-plots-ashley-fletcher-route-3823020
