Danny, Jovon, and the type of fans we are | Vital Football

Danny, Jovon, and the type of fans we are

L

LA_Imp

Vital Squad Member
Afternoon Imps. Thought I would start a thread asking us to take a look at ourselves and get behind the players a bit more. Recent comments during and after recent matches are the reason for this thread.

First – Mandriou. Arguably our most skillful player, but clearly a player, like most, who can run hot and cold. But let’s look at Saturday. Gets sent off for a challenge due to over exuberance and a poor decision. Was it petulant – no. Was it born out of malice – no. Was he fully committed and “in” the game and did he over extend himself when a wiser head would have taken a different approach – yes.

Second – Makama. Some of the comments about Jovon are frankly embarrassing. Jovon, is a 19 year old attempting to forge a career as a professional footballer. At the start of the season he was probably 3rd or 4th choice striker but through a series of events has been asked to lead the charge. At times we have seen from Jovon pace, strength, and glimpses of a target man that he could one day be. We’ve also seen a player who clearly struggles to fit in currently at this level (at the moment) needs to still work on his touch, and probably gain confidence as he grows into his body. Inevitably, this has led to inconsistency. None of which should be a surprise, nor does the blame lie with Jovon, who should be in the National League bullying defenders and progressing as a player.

The day we start attacking players for trying too hard, making poor decisions out of a legitimate desire to try and seize the game for us, is the day we have to look in the mirror and ask ourselves what sort of fans we really are. And the day we start throwing out criticism at teenage players for not yet having figured out what they are capable of, or for falling short after they have been asked to occupy a role they never expected at this stage of their careers is the day that perhaps we do more harm for our club than help.

As we roll into 2024 and hopefully get some players back, and bring in some quality transfers, let’s just check ourselves a bit and get behind the team, and not throw out unfair criticisms or jibes just because we need a scapegoat. United we will stand, divided we will fall. Peace.
 
"First – Mandriou. Arguably our most skillful player, but clearly a player, like most, who can run hot and cold. But let’s look at Saturday. Gets sent off for a challenge due to over exuberance and a poor decision. Was it petulant – no. Was it born out of malice – no. Was he fully committed and “in” the game and did he over extend himself when a wiser head would have taken a different approach – yes."

Can I add. Was it stupid? Yes, Was it the first time he has been stupid and cost us? No.

Danny has obvious talent but just does not have the intelligence to play at this level I'm afraid. Tactically he just doesn't have it. He won't be the first and he won't be the last in that respect. I wouldn't be disappointed if he went back to Ireland.

As regards Makama, the problem is not his age and its not his inexperience. The problem has been a clear lack of effort and his inability seemingly to use his body strength when he has been given a chance. He is 19 years old trying to make a career for himself. Surely he realises that to make that career he has to work really hard when he gets a chance? It was even apparent in pre-season, so its not as though he is suddenly overawed.

Yes, the criticism has been over the top, but he has brought it on himself. City fans will always have time for a trier. They don't, and have never, put up with a player who doesn't give 100% whatever his age. That is why the jury is well and truly out on Jovan. He has undoubted skills as regards close control and laying the ball off. Is that enough to make it as a pro at our level? Not without giving 100% effort and bullying a few centre backs physically.
 
mikeosullivan said:
"First – Mandriou. Arguably our most skillful player, but clearly a player, like most, who can run hot and cold. But let’s look at Saturday. Gets sent off for a challenge due to over exuberance and a poor decision. Was it petulant – no. Was it born out of malice – no. Was he fully committed and “in” the game and did he over extend himself when a wiser head would have taken a different approach – yes."

Can I add. Was it stupid? Yes, Was it the first time he has been stupid and cost us? No.

Danny has obvious talent but just does not have the intelligence to play at this level I'm afraid. Tactically he just doesn't have it. He won't be the first and he won't be the last in that respect. I wouldn't be disappointed if he went back to Ireland.

As regards Makama, the problem is not his age and its not his inexperience. The problem has been a clear lack of effort and his inability seemingly to use his body strength when he has been given a chance. He is 19 years old trying to make a career for himself. Surely he realises that to make that career he has to work really hard when he gets a chance? It was even apparent in pre-season, so its not as though he is suddenly overawed.

Yes, the criticism has been over the top, but he has brought it on himself. City fans will always have time for a trier. They don't, and have never, put up with a player who doesn't give 100% whatever his age. That is why the jury is well and truly out on Jovan. He has undoubted skills as regards close control and laying the ball off. Is that enough to make it as a pro at our level? Not without giving 100% effort and bullying a few centre backs physically.
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To provide some higher level, but possibly pertinent analogies with regards to Mandriou.

Eric Cantona - multiple moments of madness, but through effective man management had the career he did with the trophies in the cabinet that speak for themselves.
Roy Keane - same as above.

Clearly both players are above the level of Mandriou, but the point still stands - clubs and teams either get the best out of mercurial talents, or they don't. But if every time either Cantona or Keane had a flash of hot blood and the fans, manager, and club turned their back on them - well let's just say I think other teams would have welcomed them aboard.

As for Jovon, time will tell, but I think sometimes fans can be so quick to criticize and attack, without taking a moment to pause and think about the person their comments are aimed at. And maybe it's easier to give 100% if someone is cheering and encouraging, rather than jeering and attacking you.
 
LA_Imp said:
That is true. But it goes both ways. Sometimes IFollow can reveal a perspective not available in person.
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I disagree, I have never had a better view/opinion of a match on tv as opposed to being there in the stadium.

Whilst I disagree with booing and insulting our own players, Jovon for example is on a professional contract and is 19 (the same age as Freddie Draper).
I am disappointed that he doesn’t seem to want it, if I was a 19 year old thrust in to the first team I’d be playing like a man possessed.
If the lad isn’t good enough then he shouldn’t be anywhere near the first team squad and loaned out in August like Kendall was.

As I have mentioned before, Jovon could be Haaland and we’d still not score. It is a coaching/formation issue
 
cdhIMP said:
I disagree, I have never had a better view/opinion of a match on tv as opposed to being there in the stadium.

Whilst I disagree with booing and insulting our own players, Jovon for example is on a professional contract and is 19 (the same age as Freddie Draper).
I am disappointed that he doesn’t seem to want it, if I was a 19 year old thrust in to the first team I’d be playing like a man possessed.
If the lad isn’t good enough then he shouldn’t be anywhere near the first team squad and loaned out in August like Kendall was.

As I have mentioned before, Jovon could be Haaland and we’d still not score. It is a coaching/formation issue
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Are you honestly saying that a replay has never changed your mind about anything (an option you do not get when watching a match live)? I'm happy to concede the different perspectives of both, but to deny that you always have the best opinion of a match live rather than in-person is nonsense. Hypothetically, if a close-up replay was available and Mandriou was shown not to have made contact with the Bolton player, would you still hold the same opinion? Moments like this happen all the time in football.

The fact that Jovon is in the first team, whether good enough or not, is absolutely not his personal decision. Squad choice was a decision made prior to the start of the season by others. And if he, individually, would have benefited with his own progress by being loaned out, maybe, just maybe, the club haven't done right by him, rather than the other way round - something to think about
 
LA_Imp said:
Are you honestly saying that a replay has never changed your mind about anything (an option you do not get when watching a match live)? I'm happy to concede the different perspectives of both, but to deny that you always have the best opinion of a match live rather than in-person is nonsense. Hypothetically, if a close-up replay was available and Mandriou was shown not to have made contact with the Bolton player, would you still hold the same opinion? Moments like this happen all the time in football.

The fact that Jovon is in the first team, whether good enough or not, is absolutely not his personal decision. Squad choice was a decision made prior to the start of the season by others. And if he, individually, would have benefited with his own progress by being loaned out, maybe, just maybe, the club haven't done right by him, rather than the other way round - something to think about
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I’m not referring to replays, I am saying for general perspective of a match in terms of players endeavour and off the ball work. You can watch 100 replays but you’re not seeing any of that.

Whether it is Jovon’s fault he is in the sqaud or not is irrelevant. I support Lincoln City and I expect win, lose or draw that every player who pulls on the red and white stripes to come off having put in a shift.
My personal view is that he doesn’t put in enough effort and doesn’t use his physical attributes to the best of his ability.

Age or ability is irrelevant, if you want to succeed then you leave if all out there and put in a shift. It isn’t just Jovon, but as he is playing on his own up top, it is just more apparent.
 
cdhIMP said:
I’m not referring to replays, I am saying for general perspective of a match in terms of players endeavour and off the ball work. You can watch 100 replays but you’re not seeing any of that.

Whether it is Jovon’s fault he is in the sqaud or not is irrelevant. I support Lincoln City and I expect win, lose or draw that every player who pulls on the red and white stripes to come off having put in a shift.
My personal view is that he doesn’t put in enough effort and doesn’t use his physical attributes to the best of his ability.

Age or ability is irrelevant, if you want to succeed then you leave if all out there and put in a shift. It isn’t just Jovon, but as he is playing on his own up top, it is just more apparent.
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I think we are in pretty broad agreement and are just tinkering around the edges really. But I do think the level of player development and squad selection is relevant. Clubs have a professional responsibility to develop youth players, I think that is understood across the game, and frankly is no different to other industries that take on apprentices. There are never guarantees, but there are correct ways to do it and incorrect ways, and probably a thousand choices in between. However, to move someone into first team selection at a point where it can be detrimental to the long-term career development of a player is a definite risk.

There is a reason teams employ sports psychologists and focus on player development outside of the training ground and weight room. Get it right, and you breed success, screw it up and you risk individual playing careers, and most certainly long-term club success.

It's just not as simple as pulling on the shirt and putting in a shift.
 
There are some great comments in this thread. Makama situation is very similar to the forward line crisis that resulted in Freddy Draper playing up front.Freddy enivitably struggled to make an impact too. Mandy? Most clubs have a Mandy . Mercurial and petelutant in equal measure . Football wouldn't be the same without them .
 
mikeosullivan said:
As regards Makama, the problem is not his age and its not his inexperience. The problem has been a clear lack of effort and his inability seemingly to use his body strength when he has been given a chance. He is 19 years old trying to make a career for himself. Surely he realises that to make that career he has to work really hard when he gets a chance? It was even apparent in pre-season, so its not as though he is suddenly overawed.
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This is exactly it with Makama. He's up front and part of his job is to put himself about and press the defenders. Surely, a strong young lad of 19 can run around a lot and use his size to intimidate defenders. It doesn't need experience.
 
gijsbert_bos said:
This is exactly it with Makama. He's up front and part of his job is to put himself about and press the defenders. Surely, a strong young lad of 19 can run around a lot and use his size to intimidate defenders. It doesn't need experience.
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He played ok against Bolton. Did what was asked of him .Connected well on the rare occasions when we attacked.Were we set up to press against Bolton ?
 
LA_Imp said:
Afternoon Imps. Thought I would start a thread asking us to take a look at ourselves and get behind the players a bit more. Recent comments during and after recent matches are the reason for this thread.

First – Mandriou. Arguably our most skillful player, but clearly a player, like most, who can run hot and cold. But let’s look at Saturday. Gets sent off for a challenge due to over exuberance and a poor decision. Was it petulant – no. Was it born out of malice – no. Was he fully committed and “in” the game and did he over extend himself when a wiser head would have taken a different approach – yes.

Second – Makama. Some of the comments about Jovon are frankly embarrassing. Jovon, is a 19 year old attempting to forge a career as a professional footballer. At the start of the season he was probably 3rd or 4th choice striker but through a series of events has been asked to lead the charge. At times we have seen from Jovon pace, strength, and glimpses of a target man that he could one day be. We’ve also seen a player who clearly struggles to fit in currently at this level (at the moment) needs to still work on his touch, and probably gain confidence as he grows into his body. Inevitably, this has led to inconsistency. None of which should be a surprise, nor does the blame lie with Jovon, who should be in the National League bullying defenders and progressing as a player.

The day we start attacking players for trying too hard, making poor decisions out of a legitimate desire to try and seize the game for us, is the day we have to look in the mirror and ask ourselves what sort of fans we really are. And the day we start throwing out criticism at teenage players for not yet having figured out what they are capable of, or for falling short after they have been asked to occupy a role they never expected at this stage of their careers is the day that perhaps we do more harm for our club than help.

As we roll into 2024 and hopefully get some players back, and bring in some quality transfers, let’s just check ourselves a bit and get behind the team, and not throw out unfair criticisms or jibes just because we need a scapegoat. United we will stand, divided we will fall. Peace.
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Cracking post
 
All interesting comments. Can understand the frustrations with both Danny and Jovon.
But cannot believe that fans would want to get rid of our only really talented player. Yes Mandriou probably cost us a point against Bolton but before Skoobs came he was being criticised for not working and tackling back. He has certainly rectified that under Skobs but obviously got carried away with the lunge that was an obvious red. I totally agree that two reds and 7 matches missing is no help to us. I would expect Skoobs to have a long talk with Danny and a fine wouldn't go amiss but get rid off him? If and when we have anyone up front making any decent runs and movement Mandriou is the one to supply the ammunition to them. He has nobody doing that at the moment.

As for Jovon yes he has had some unfair criticism both on here and from the crowd at matches. But I think that the majority of fans have given honest opinions of him. Most recognise he has a thankless task at the moment playing up front on his own against experienced defenders. But he is just not up to the standard of League one or two to be honest. And that is what most are saying. He got a decent round of applause when he came off on Saturday because most people realise his limitations. I think his languid style of running makes him look like he isn't trying and his lack of closing down is I would suggest the way he has been told to play. As a team we stood back from Bolton and allowed them to walk forward with the ball. The thing for me is that we know at his stage of developnent he will have good and bad games and be in and out of games but you usually see some spark of something special in young players and I just have not seen it in Jovon. I hope I am wrong but I really dont see him playing at this level. But he shouldn't be made a scapegoat he is only one member of the team with others not exactly setting the game alight.
 
cdhIMP said:
I disagree, I have never had a better view/opinion of a match on tv as opposed to being there in the stadium.
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You simply can’t beat being at the ground for the experience and sense of immersion, but as someone reliant on iFollow for the majority of the time these days, I’m happy that it does provide a reliable alternative for a wide field of view and no worse than being there.
 
It's a little bit nieve of anyone to think that the majority ofsupporters are going to cheer on and support something that they can see with their own eyes is clearly not working.

Makama in one way has been lucky to get the opportunity but in another way its an opportunity that was never going to work because of the way the team is currently set up to play.

He is more of the victim in all this. He was never in a million years ready to play at this standard of football, particularly in a team that cannot mount meaningful attacks and create goalscoring opportunities. We could have Haarland standing up there and the outcome would be the same.

He should of been nowhere near the team because he still has so much to learn and really should be out on loan at a level and in a team that will allow him to do that.

Being in our first team won't and people may go on about fans having a go at him but such is the harsh realities of football, as soon as we have got someone to replace him he will be jettisoned out the team as quick as he came in.

This experience for him will either toughen him up more to want to learn, work hard and try and make it in the pro game either here or somewhere else or it could have a detrimental effect on him because at the moment he will know as soon as there is someone to replace him he will be out of the team.

I'm sure he will get the support he needs but it's not his fault and not necessarily him the fans are having a go at it's the whole situation in which the team has been turned into boring, non attacking unit. Makama is just bearing the brunt of the fans frustrations and I'm afraid will do so whilst in the team and until the situation changes.
 
gijsbert_bos said:
This is exactly it with Makama. He's up front and part of his job is to put himself about and press the defenders. Surely, a strong young lad of 19 can run around a lot and use his size to intimidate defenders. It doesn't need experience.
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It's my firm opinion that he is executing the managers game plan, he's not pressing and closing down hard because that's the game plan. Against Bolton it was obvious to me the plan was to allow the keeper to play it to Santos and then cut off every pass to ensure he had to play it long.
 
No one has yet made the point with Makama that since Skubala was appointed, he's made his full EFL debut and since been the starting striker. Clearly, in the view of MS and the coaching staff, Jovon is doing enough right things to merit continued selection over the other, albeit limited options, Vale and Adelakun, and that will include the physical effort he's putting in. The coaching staff have access to a whole realm of data which we don't.

I think though the physical and mental effect of that sudden increase in workload is now evident. Against similar, experienced defenders Jovon had a pretty good game at Wigan but struggled at Derby. Some of that is down to the team around him - we pressed pretty effectively at Wigan, less so at Derby where he was more isolated and less effective but that wasn't his fault.

We need to be supporting our players, not finding scapegoats.
 
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