Cummings coming

[ZedRed]

The Garabaldi - 13/6/2017 18:20

i actually think the smaller clubs have been doing quite well compared to what finances they've got to Rangers/Celtic. In fact they could be propping them up. These who have done well in England or been purchased higher up the chain in Scotland.

Hibernian

Steven Whittaker - OK perhaps reasonable for Championship level
Kevin Thomson - Did nothing in England
Scott Brown - Possibly a good player, but never had the balls to come down to England
Garry O'Connor - Did nothing in England
Steven Fletcher - Good player but came to England a LONG time ago - my argument is that year-on-year Scotland seems to be producing worse players
Kenny Miller - A couple of good seasons with Wolves, but came a LONG time ago
(Jason Cummings)

Hearts

Craig Gordon - good player but came a long time ago
Callum Paterson - Who?
Christophe Berra - Nothing to write home about and wouldn't get in to our side now
Gary Naismith - Came a long time ago, left a long time ago
Lee Wallace - Never came to England
Jason Holt - Only played in League One
(Next two Sam Nicholson and Jamie Walker)

Kilmarnock

Steven Naismith - Good player, I'll give you this one
Kris Boyd - Came and left a long time ago
These 4 in Scotland Toulon squad who came 3rd : Greg Taylor, Iain Wilson, Adam Frizzell, Greg Kiltie)

Motherwell

Mark Reynolds - Couldn't hack it in England
Stephen Pearson - Worst team in history
Jamie Murphy - Has done well - I'll give you this one
Lee McCulloch - Came a long time ago
James McFadden - Came a long time ago
Star now is Chris Cadden

Aberdeen

Kevin McNaughton - Came a long time ago
Ryan Jack - Hasn't come to England
Ryan Fraser - Looks like he might do well

Hamilton Academical

James McCarthy - plays for Ireland so I'm not going to allow this one!
James McArthur - Good player but came a long time ago

Dundee Utd

John Souttar - Hasn't come to England
Andrew Roberston - Superb player. Yes, you can have this one.
Stuart Armstrong - Hasn't come to England
Gary Mackay-Steven - Hasn't come to England
Ryan Gauld - Hasn't come to England
Johnny Russell - Yes, I suppose the ****'s not done too badly has he?

Livingston

Robert Snodgrass - came a long time ago
Graham Dorrans - Came a long time ago
Leigh Griffiths - Will probably go down as a legend of Scottish football, but was pretty average in the Championship

St Mirren

John McGinn - not come to England
Kenny McLean - not come to England

Ross County

Don Cowie - Came a long time ago

Dundee

Craig Forsyth - Came a long time ago
Kevin MacDonald - Came a long time ago

Inverness

Graham Shinnie - Never came to England

Falkirk

Stephen Kingsley - Let's see how he get's on

So, we've got:

Whittaker
Naismith
Murphy
Fraser
Robertson
Russell

As players who have done OK coming form Scotland in the last 5 years and shown that they are able to play or have played well enough to get in to our side.

And how many of them came straight from the Scottish Championship?

Also, how well does this compare to other EU Nations of similar standing such as a Denmark, Slovenia, Bulgaria etc?

 

[The Garabaldi]

ZedRed - 14/6/2017 12:02

The Garabaldi - 13/6/2017 18:20

i actually think the smaller clubs have been doing quite well compared to what finances they've got to Rangers/Celtic. In fact they could be propping them up. These who have done well in England or been purchased higher up the chain in Scotland.

Hibernian

Steven Whittaker - OK perhaps reasonable for Championship level
Kevin Thomson - Did nothing in England
Scott Brown - Possibly a good player, but never had the balls to come down to England
Garry O'Connor - Did nothing in England
Steven Fletcher - Good player but came to England a LONG time ago - my argument is that year-on-year Scotland seems to be producing worse players
Kenny Miller - A couple of good seasons with Wolves, but came a LONG time ago
(Jason Cummings)

Hearts

Craig Gordon - good player but came a long time ago
Callum Paterson - Who?
Christophe Berra - Nothing to write home about and wouldn't get in to our side now
Gary Naismith - Came a long time ago, left a long time ago
Lee Wallace - Never came to England
Jason Holt - Only played in League One
(Next two Sam Nicholson and Jamie Walker)

Kilmarnock

Steven Naismith - Good player, I'll give you this one
Kris Boyd - Came and left a long time ago
These 4 in Scotland Toulon squad who came 3rd : Greg Taylor, Iain Wilson, Adam Frizzell, Greg Kiltie)

Motherwell

Mark Reynolds - Couldn't hack it in England
Stephen Pearson - Worst team in history
Jamie Murphy - Has done well - I'll give you this one
Lee McCulloch - Came a long time ago
James McFadden - Came a long time ago
Star now is Chris Cadden

Aberdeen

Kevin McNaughton - Came a long time ago
Ryan Jack - Hasn't come to England
Ryan Fraser - Looks like he might do well

Hamilton Academical

James McCarthy - plays for Ireland so I'm not going to allow this one!
James McArthur - Good player but came a long time ago

Dundee Utd

John Souttar - Hasn't come to England
Andrew Roberston - Superb player. Yes, you can have this one.
Stuart Armstrong - Hasn't come to England
Gary Mackay-Steven - Hasn't come to England
Ryan Gauld - Hasn't come to England
Johnny Russell - Yes, I suppose the ****'s not done too badly has he?

Livingston

Robert Snodgrass - came a long time ago
Graham Dorrans - Came a long time ago
Leigh Griffiths - Will probably go down as a legend of Scottish football, but was pretty average in the Championship

St Mirren

John McGinn - not come to England
Kenny McLean - not come to England

Ross County

Don Cowie - Came a long time ago

Dundee

Craig Forsyth - Came a long time ago
Kevin MacDonald - Came a long time ago

Inverness

Graham Shinnie - Never came to England

Falkirk

Stephen Kingsley - Let's see how he get's on

So, we've got:

Whittaker
Naismith
Murphy
Fraser
Robertson
Russell

As players who have done OK coming form Scotland in the last 5 years and shown that they are able to play or have played well enough to get in to our side.

And how many of them came straight from the Scottish Championship?

Also, how well does this compare to other EU Nations of similar standing such as a Denmark, Slovenia, Bulgaria etc?

To me it doesn't matter if they came a long time ago (some are questionable to be a ling time ago as some just 30) but 99% are still playing football plus they have the pedigree and culture to produce those players. That won't stop. It's still a football and some grass to play on that makes a footballer.

Hibs certainly have that culture since Joe Baker, Peter Cormack and even good old Brian Rice was there in their youth and been decent for Forest.

Especially where we are now - it is as about as good a young attacker we will get for that price with 71 goals behind him. His ability to stop balls dead and find uncanny space and then finish is what gets goals at our level. The long range shots don't excite me as much !

Look Im all for not getting ahead of ourselves but actually find this signing as intriguing especially if we keep BA and BB.

If we sell one of them then I would want serious money to revamp fwd line and get Carayol out to and maybe Ward, to bring in another goalscorer (Bamford if needs be) and a youngster like Ollie Watkins at Exeter.

 

[ZedRed]

My worry is simply the standard of the Scottish Championship.

If we were to buy a hotshot from the Slovenian or Bulgarian second tier, what would people's thoughts be, because those are probably comparable leagues?

 

[Calvin Plummer]

ZedRed - 14/6/2017 09:43


My worry is simply the standard of the Scottish Championship.

If we were to buy a hotshot from the Slovenian or Bulgarian second tier, what would people's thoughts be, because those are probably comparable leagues?

It's a ridiculous comparison as the adjustment culturally is far greater but leaving that aside for the moment I'd be absolutely fine.

Our new highly respected manager would have seen him play regularly and I'd trust his judgement. The price is incredibly reasonable for a young player with so many goals already under his belt.

Absolutely no guarantees he'll make the grade here but it's exactly the sort of signing we should be making. An unpolished diamond that has the potential to grow and make us a significant profit.

In case you haven't noticed priven championship strikers are going for literally 10x that price. We can't compete on that market and nor should we try too.

Instead of repeating the same old tired nonsense about Scottish football compared to us, why not suggest some targets with a better pedegree at a similar age that we can pick up for less than 1.5m?

 

[Mark2310]

They may be comparable overall but not so at the time this guy played and that was at a time where they were playing both Rangers and Hearts so it was a 3 way battle with some very high profile games

Added to which you might sneer at Scottish football but Hibs is still a club that has ambition and expectation and was punching below its weight so the players up there are hardly all Zico's in the eyes of the fans and this guy rates extremely highly for them.

Highlights are highlights I know but it clearly shows he has a good first touch, he gets into goal poaching positions and he also drops into the hole, now will this be as effective at our standard of course not but when you have the instinct you are half way there, seems to me you are dismissing this fella based on who he plays for rather than looking at the bigger picture which is a club that doesn't want to sell, bids in the same region as ours from several clubs players who he has played with singing his praises and a background of hard work and consistently good performances and last but by no means least a manager who has lined up against him 8 times in 2 seasons watched countless hours of videos of him week in week out

I applaud MW it would have been so easy to have gone to Rangers for a player but no he has followed up on a player who has obviously impressed him over a sustained period way more than those he worked with on a daily basis

Whats not to like

 

[The Garabaldi]

Both well said Cp and Mark.

I think we all understand ZedRed's concerns but who are we to think we can get more proven at that price after coming 41st in English ladder.

Also there are d ome articles flying about that besides his footballing ability he has this self confidence that can only go a far way.

 

[orbitalforest]

We could spend £10m on a Premier league fringe player and there would be no guarantees he'd be a success.
£1.4m isn't a huge fee nowadays by any means.
Well worth the gamble in my opinion .

 

[ZedRed]

Calvin Plummer - 14/6/2017 09:56

ZedRed - 14/6/2017 09:43


My worry is simply the standard of the Scottish Championship.

If we were to buy a hotshot from the Slovenian or Bulgarian second tier, what would people's thoughts be, because those are probably comparable leagues?

It's a ridiculous comparison as the adjustment culturally is far greater but leaving that aside for the moment I'd be absolutely fine.

Our new highly respected manager would have seen him play regularly and I'd trust his judgement. The price is incredibly reasonable for a young player with so many goals already under his belt.

Absolutely no guarantees he'll make the grade here but it's exactly the sort of signing we should be making. An unpolished diamond that has the potential to grow and make us a significant profit.

In case you haven't noticed priven championship strikers are going for literally 10x that price. We can't compete on that market and nor should we try too.

Instead of repeating the same old tired nonsense about Scottish football compared to us, why not suggest some targets with a better pedegree at a similar age that we can pick up for less than 1.5m?

Of course, the cultural adjustment is much greater, but is the standard that much different?

I wouldn't want to sign a 'proven' Championship striker, but surely spending a little bit more on a League One striker with potential or about the same on a League Two striker with potential is a bit less of a risk than signing a second tier player from a third rate footballing nation for more than a million quid?

 

[The Garabaldi]

But has't there been abnormal things in Scottish football recently with 3 of their biggest 5 not competing in the top tier ?

Hibs, Hearts, Rangers have expectations to and were competing against each other.

1) Competition higher than normal
2) Hibs had expectations as traditional club and from 18-21 scored 71 goals and was set for Rangers in Jan. Would take a decent offer to prize away Cummings who is their first player to score 20+ in 3 successive seasons since Joe Baker.
3) He has scored truck loads of goals v Hearts and Rangers in that time and seen their fans thanking we've taken him away from Scotland.

 

[boszi]

Calvin Plummer - 14/6/2017 09:56

The price is incredibly reasonable for a young player with so many goals already under his belt.

Yes, it is incredibly reasonable, given that Peterborough had a bid worth £1.7million thrown out last August.

It's not as though his contract is running out, because he signed a new four year deal around that time.

And Lennon said at that time ...

"Everyone has a price, but I would doubt a lot of clubs could match what we think of Jason at the minute."

So why the low price now, surely, if anything, his price should have risen?

 

[Nanpantan red]

To give some perspective on the current state of prices, Derby have just paid £4.5 million for Andre Wisdom from Liverpool. He was most recently on loan in Austria but had previously been on loan at Derby, so really would classify only as a championship defender. He's the guy you may recall followed his sat-nav to Derby's training ground and ended up driving down a woodland track and dumping his Porsche in 3 ft of muddy water.

 

[Widdow]

The Garabaldi - 14/6/2017 10:16

But has't there been abnormal things in Scottish football recently with 3 of their biggest 5 not competing in the top tier ?

Hibs, Hearts, Rangers have expectations to and were competing against each other.

1) Competition higher than normal
2) Hibs had expectations as traditional club and from 18-21 scored 71 goals and was set for Rangers in Jan. Would take a decent offer to prize away Cummings who is their first player to score 20+ in 3 successive seasons since Joe Baker.
3) He has scored truck loads of goals v Hearts and Rangers in that time and seen their fans thanking we've taken him away from Scotland.

As said before I do hope he is second cumming of Baker

 

[Nanpantan red]

To give some perspective on the current state of prices, Derby have just paid £4.5 million for Andre Wisdom from Liverpool. He was most recently on loan in Austria but had previously been on loan at Derby, so really would classify only as a championship defender. He's the guy you may recall followed his sat-nav to Derby's training ground and ended up driving down a woodland track and dumping his £100K Porsche in 3 ft of muddy water.

 

[ZedRed]

Nanpantan red - 14/6/2017 10:21

To give some perspective on the current state of prices, Derby have just paid £4.5 million for Andre Wisdom from Liverpool. He was most recently on loan in Austria but had previously been on loan at Derby, so really would classify only as a championship defender. He's the guy you may recall followed his sat-nav to Derby's training ground and ended up driving down a woodland track and dumping his £100K Porsche in 3 ft of muddy water.

Not particularly wise.

 

[ZedRed]

Widdow - 14/6/2017 10:19

The Garabaldi - 14/6/2017 10:16

But has't there been abnormal things in Scottish football recently with 3 of their biggest 5 not competing in the top tier ?

Hibs, Hearts, Rangers have expectations to and were competing against each other.

1) Competition higher than normal
2) Hibs had expectations as traditional club and from 18-21 scored 71 goals and was set for Rangers in Jan. Would take a decent offer to prize away Cummings who is their first player to score 20+ in 3 successive seasons since Joe Baker.
3) He has scored truck loads of goals v Hearts and Rangers in that time and seen their fans thanking we've taken him away from Scotland.

As said before I do hope he is second cumming of Baker

It's unwise to compare Scottish football then with Scottish football now.

I bet Veldwijk would have scored a similar amount in that league.

 

[factchecker]

ZedRed - 14/6/2017 10:55
It's unwise to compare Scottish football then with Scottish football now.

I bet Veldwijk would have scored a similar amount in that league.

He wouldn't.

His core problem was that he couldn't cope with physical challenges. From what I've seen of Scottish football, he'd hate it more there than he did here.

 

[Calvin Plummer]

ZedRed - 14/6/2017 10:10

Calvin Plummer - 14/6/2017 09:56

ZedRed - 14/6/2017 09:43


My worry is simply the standard of the Scottish Championship.

If we were to buy a hotshot from the Slovenian or Bulgarian second tier, what would people's thoughts be, because those are probably comparable leagues?

It's a ridiculous comparison as the adjustment culturally is far greater but leaving that aside for the moment I'd be absolutely fine.

Our new highly respected manager would have seen him play regularly and I'd trust his judgement. The price is incredibly reasonable for a young player with so many goals already under his belt.

Absolutely no guarantees he'll make the grade here but it's exactly the sort of signing we should be making. An unpolished diamond that has the potential to grow and make us a significant profit.

In case you haven't noticed priven championship strikers are going for literally 10x that price. We can't compete on that market and nor should we try too.

Instead of repeating the same old tired nonsense about Scottish football compared to us, why not suggest some targets with a better pedegree at a similar age that we can pick up for less than 1.5m?

Of course, the cultural adjustment is much greater, but is the standard that much different?

I wouldn't want to sign a 'proven' Championship striker, but surely spending a little bit more on a League One striker with potential or about the same on a League Two striker with potential is a bit less of a risk than signing a second tier player from a third rate footballing nation for more than a million quid?

Who? Britt came from that league and was 4x the price. Feel free to list proven young goal scorers in that league who we could sign for the same cost.

We sit 41st, in a mediocre country, in a mediocre league. Your view of how good we are is distorted beyond belief.

 

[Nanpantan red]

Widdow - 14/6/2017 10:19

The Garabaldi - 14/6/2017 10:16

But has't there been abnormal things in Scottish football recently with 3 of their biggest 5 not competing in the top tier ?

Hibs, Hearts, Rangers have expectations to and were competing against each other.

1) Competition higher than normal
2) Hibs had expectations as traditional club and from 18-21 scored 71 goals and was set for Rangers in Jan. Would take a decent offer to prize away Cummings who is their first player to score 20+ in 3 successive seasons since Joe Baker.
3) He has scored truck loads of goals v Hearts and Rangers in that time and seen their fans thanking we've taken him away from Scotland.

As said before I do hope he is second cumming of Baker

Except that we signed Joe Baker from Arsenal where he had proved himself in the top English league. It was Torino who signed him from Hibs. And another difference is that Joe Baker was English and not Scottish anyway.

 

[ZedRed]

Calvin Plummer - 14/6/2017 11:43

ZedRed - 14/6/2017 10:10

Calvin Plummer - 14/6/2017 09:56

ZedRed - 14/6/2017 09:43


My worry is simply the standard of the Scottish Championship.

If we were to buy a hotshot from the Slovenian or Bulgarian second tier, what would people's thoughts be, because those are probably comparable leagues?

It's a ridiculous comparison as the adjustment culturally is far greater but leaving that aside for the moment I'd be absolutely fine.

Our new highly respected manager would have seen him play regularly and I'd trust his judgement. The price is incredibly reasonable for a young player with so many goals already under his belt.

Absolutely no guarantees he'll make the grade here but it's exactly the sort of signing we should be making. An unpolished diamond that has the potential to grow and make us a significant profit.

In case you haven't noticed priven championship strikers are going for literally 10x that price. We can't compete on that market and nor should we try too.

Instead of repeating the same old tired nonsense about Scottish football compared to us, why not suggest some targets with a better pedegree at a similar age that we can pick up for less than 1.5m?

Of course, the cultural adjustment is much greater, but is the standard that much different?

I wouldn't want to sign a 'proven' Championship striker, but surely spending a little bit more on a League One striker with potential or about the same on a League Two striker with potential is a bit less of a risk than signing a second tier player from a third rate footballing nation for more than a million quid?

Who? Britt came from that league and was 4x the price. Feel free to list proven young goal scorers in that league who we could sign for the same cost.

We sit 41st, in a mediocre country, in a mediocre league. Your view of how good we are is distorted beyond belief.

No, we are absolute dogshit. We've been a complete fooking disgrace for 20 years now.

It's just that despite being all that, we are still substantially better than second tier Scottish football.

 

[PVH]

Vardy was playing non-league football when Leicester signed him.

How did that work out then?

I'm all for us signing the best quality we can get our hands on, but at the same time we've barely got a pot to piss in. So guess what, we're doing what other clubs in our division do, and that's trying to build a squad with players who are young, hungry and affordable, and who hopefully fulfill their remit.

Lads, we're not shpping in Waitrose anymore. The days of handing out £20k a week contracts to ex-prem players are (hopefully) long gone. We're doing what other clubs in our league do. I'm happy that we are too.