Covid, Phase II. Commonsense is the order of the day. | Page 60 | Vital Football

Covid, Phase II. Commonsense is the order of the day.

For those of you who may be prone to a bit of anti-vaccination or doubt how successful it's been as a human medicine - you need to read this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Anti-vaxxers-How-Challenge-Misinformed-Movement/dp/0262539322/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Anti-vaxxers:+How+to+Challenge+a+Misinformed+Movement&qid=1605793858&sr=8-1

A history of the anti-vaccination movement, from its nineteenth-century antecedents to today's anti-vax activism, offering strategies for refuting its claims.
Vaccines are a documented success story, one of the most successful public health interventions in history. Yet there is a vocal anti-vaccination movement, featuring celebrity activists (including Kennedy scion Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and actress Jenny McCarthy) and the propagation of anti-vax claims through books, documentaries, and social media. In Anti-Vaxxers, Jonathan Berman explores the phenomenon of the anti-vaccination movement, recounting its history from its nineteenth-century antecedents to today's activism, examining its claims, and suggesting a strategy for countering them.
After providing background information on vaccines and how they work, Berman describes resistance to Britain's Vaccination Act of 1853, showing that the arguments anticipate those made by today's anti-vaxxers. He discusses the development of new vaccines in the twentieth century, including those protecting against polio and MMR (measles, mumps, rubella), and the debunked paper that linked the MMR vaccine to autism; the CDC conspiracy theory promoted in the documentary Vaxxed; recommendations for an alternative vaccination schedule; Kennedy's misinformed campaign against thimerosal; and the much-abused religious exemption to vaccination.
Anti-vaxxers have changed their minds, but rarely because someone has given them a list of facts. Berman argues that anti-vaccination activism is tied closely to how people see themselves as parents and community members. Effective pro-vaccination efforts should emphasize these cultural aspects rather than battling social media posts.
 
Spursex said:
Long, but an absolute MUST Read for everyone; the dedication of a very tiny number of scientists is a lesson to us all, it's also why we must keep funding blue-sky research even when to some, it appears pointless.

The breakthrough is incredible and heralds a whole new scope of future cures/treatments.

I love science.


https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/10...leading-technology-in-the-covid-vaccine-race/
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Excellent read but I can understand why people have reservations about the basis of the science used in developing these two vaccines.

On the face of it a very exciting approach but both companies have been developing products to address several different diseases for several years, but as yet, none have received approval....why is that? I suspect at a purely simplistic level it could be that not enough is yet known about the ongoing effects of changing cells in the body to demand a different range of enzymes and how that is managed so as not to affect the other normal operations of those cells.

If approval is given to these vaccines they will be the first of this type to be deployed on a wide scale....hopefully they will only do the job for which they were designed because if not, the cure could be worse than the disease on a grand scale. Of course if it works perfectly then maybe many of their other products could be approved, particularly in the sphere of cancer.
 
I’m not anti-vaccination....indeed the complete opposite, but as I said above, exciting as the science is these vaccines will be the first approved products to be deployed, and deployed in huge numbers, so it better be foolproof.....I can understand people wanting a vaccine but being prepared to let others be the guinea pigs for this scientific approach.

On another topic, EX do you know why the Oxford vaccine trials seem to be running much later than the Pfizer and Moderna studies? I thought Oxford began their trials well before those two.
 
Harry-Kari said:
Excellent read but I can understand why people have reservations about the basis of the science used in developing these two vaccines.

On the face of it a very exciting approach but both companies have been developing products to address several different diseases for several years, but as yet, none have received approval....why is that? I suspect at a purely simplistic level it could be that not enough is yet known about the ongoing effects of changing cells in the body to demand a different range of enzymes and how that is managed so as not to affect the other normal operations of those cells.

If approval is given to these vaccines they will be the first of this type to be deployed on a wide scale....hopefully they will only do the job for which they were designed because if not, the cure could be worse than the disease on a grand scale. Of course if it works perfectly then maybe many of their other products could be approved, particularly in the sphere of cancer.
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The simple answer is they've been working to perfect the techniques involved (which aren't simple) and every step in the process has had to be independently assessed and approved by a myriad of different regulators.

But the simplest answer of all was this: funding. Money makes things work.

When funding is limited you can only work slowly, but when funding is virtually unlimited going from a team of 20 to 650 in 6 months and all that it entails making for a vastly improved endpoint. IN one bio-informatics company that I involved with, the acceleration of the adopted roadmap has gone from 4 years to 14 months because of funding availability.

The effects or mRNA is now well known, as of now, no known side effects are visible or expected. It is a natural evolution in genetic medicine. mRNA causes the body's cells to create amino acids (the building blocks of proteins), so the process is in effect entirely natural in as much it is your immune system that reads the code and generates the response, just as it tries to do with all bodily invasions. So it CANNOT affect other normal cell operations.

So feeding fears about what else it could or might do, just ignores the science.
 
Harry-Kari said:
I’m not anti-vaccination....indeed the complete opposite, but as I said above, exciting as the science is these vaccines will be the first approved products to be deployed, and deployed in huge numbers, so it better be foolproof.....I can understand people wanting a vaccine but being prepared to let others be the guinea pigs for this scientific approach.

On another topic, EX do you know why the Oxford vaccine trials seem to be running much later than the Pfizer and Moderna studies? I thought Oxford began their trials well before those two.
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Yes, they simply haven't had enough people contract the disease during it's phase II trials - during trials you have to set a threshold for infections that then give you statistical significance - so the data that this provides means it gives you an exacting outcome of efficacy. Sadly, whilst the trials have been entirely successful (and I do know his to be true) the protocols for trials have to be completed or you risk people not having the comfidence in the vaccine or worse still a regulator that will demand extended trials to give them the data amounts they need to do their due diligence.

I'm told the data will be published by the end of December, so it's a month to 6 weeks later than hoped., and yes Oxford did start their traisl earlier but like others had to hope the infections in the trial cohort would rise as quickly, but it didn't (quirks like not being near enough infected people to catch it are always enirely random).
 
Breaking
COVID-19: Supermarkets most common exposure setting for catching coronavirus in England, latest data suggests

By Ashna Hurynag, news correspondent


Thursday 19 November 2020 15:03, UK


skynews-brexit-breaking-news_5177180.jpg



Supermarkets are the most frequent common exposure setting for those catching COVID-19 in England, new data suggests.
Public Health England (PHE) collated the data using the NHS Test and Trace app.

By analysing the contacts and retracing the steps of the 128,808 people who'd reported they had tested positive between 9 November and 15 November, PHE has uncovered where transmission is likely to be happening.
During the increased national restrictions in England, supermarkets have remained open for shoppers. The new data set suggests they are now the primary setting where the disease is being transmitted.
The second most common location reported by those who tested positive for COVID-19 were secondary schools, followed by primary schools, and then hospitals, and then care homes.

In the most recent week, 124 clusters of COVID-19 were recorded in English secondary schools.
The total number of outbreaks in secondary schools in England is 822, while primary schools have recorded 732 clusters since records began.
Of those who tested positive for COVID-19 in the days analysed by PHE, 18.3% of them said they had visited a supermarket.
 
Spursex said:
Stay away from kids, parents of kids and supermarkets then!

And stay away from Hospitals if you can!
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Already done ex, our kids(5) and their kids(15) all banned until further notice, after initial arguement, explained fully about Mum/Grandma risk to life, understanding agreed, failed with the Hospital though, but am glad cos they saved my lovely wife's life, what the ell would I do without her.
 
Pompey Yid said:
Already done ex, our kids(5) and their kids(15) all banned until further notice, after initial arguement, explained fully about Mum/Grandma risk to life, understanding agreed, failed with the Hospital though, but am glad cos they saved my lovely wife's life, what the ell would I do without her.
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Hold her close, do (as I know you do) everything you can to keep her safe; challenge those in authority and get the help and support you need, as I promise you I know better than most, in the end no matter how tough you are mentally or physically, it will drain you in ways you haven't even considered yet.

I've followed your posts about her and I know what you are dealing with.

So whilst taking care of her, don't be a macho-man - you'll need a break and help as much as you think you won't - if someone offers it, don't refuse, take it for what it's worth - a helping hand from someone that wants to be part of helping you both get to better and brighter days, and with luck and the help from your family and friends, she'll get stronger and better.

As you say, learning what to do without her is a lesson I hope you don't ever have to face anytime soon., and I know she'd say the same about you.
 
Spursex said:
Yes, they simply haven't had enough people contract the disease during it's phase II trials - during trials you have to set a threshold for infections that then give you statistical significance - so the data that this provides means it gives you an exacting outcome of efficacy. Sadly, whilst the trials have been entirely successful (and I do know his to be true) the protocols for trials have to be completed or you risk people not having the comfidence in the vaccine or worse still a regulator that will demand extended trials to give them the data amounts they need to do their due diligence.

I'm told the data will be published by the end of December, so it's a month to 6 weeks later than hoped., and yes Oxford did start their traisl earlier but like others had to hope the infections in the trial cohort would rise as quickly, but it didn't (quirks like not being near enough infected people to catch it are always enirely random).
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Thanks Ex
 
80deg16minW said:
Really? How about testing everyone that lands and quarantining them for 48 hours while their tests are completed. Like New Zealand.
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Sorry 80'. That's not what NZ did. There are not enough Hotels to house a normal flow of incoming passengers for 14 days in Auckland and Wellington, let alone the UK as the incoming numbers would be higher there.

We do that in Australia with an agreed number of incoming Aussies returning home after overseas posts. But we're only talking about a tiny number per Australia State, of around 300 per week and a little more in NSW.

Apart from the recent out break in South Australia (Adelaide) with 22 community transmitted cases, the only cases NSW, QLD and Victoria have are returning international travelers which are in hotel quarantine.

Australia is an island hence we can and have closed our int'l borders which has devastated the economy but saved thousands of lives. Many states have gone 70 days without any new cases, including Queensland....so it does work.
 
NHS prepares dozens of Covid mass vaccination centres around England
At least 42 sites are being made ready in arenas, conference centres and other large venues

Denis Campbell Health policy editor
Fri 20 Nov 2020 00.07 GMT Last modified on Fri 20 Nov 2020 04.37 GMT

An NHS flu vaccination station at Ascot racecourse, the sort of large venue that is ideal for the mass vaccination programme. Photograph: Maureen McLean/Rex/Shutterstock

The NHS is preparing to open dozens of mass vaccination centres across England to vaccinate people against Covid-19.
There will be at least 42 centres, based in places such as conference centres, and the NHS is planning to hire tens of thousands of staff to run them, the Health Service Journal reported.
The fresh details of how people will get the vaccine come as NHS England prepares to publish its “deployment plan” for how it will store, distribute and administer the vaccine.
Sir Simon Stevens, its chief executive, and Boris Johnson are expected to promote the plan during a press conference on Friday. The prime minister is currently self-isolating after close contact with a Conservative MP who tested positive for coronavirus.


There will be at least one mass vaccination centre in each of the NHS’s 42 sustainability and partnership areas and the centres will be sited in cities and larger towns.

The Guardian reported last week that each mass vaccination centre will vaccinate between 2,000 and 5,000 people a day.

Derby city council has offered the Derby Arena to the NHS as a venue for one of the centres. “The arena is a perfect venue. It has plenty of space, parking and good transport networks to serve Derby, Derbyshire and beyond,” said councillor Chris Poulter, the council’s leader. “It’s an honour for Derby to have the opportunity to play such a critical part in any vaccination programme.”

The NHS plans to hire 6,000 staff to run the centres in the south-east and 5,000 in London, suggesting that it will have to use 30,000 to 40,000 extra personnel, potentially for many months.

However, mass vaccination centres are likely to comprise the second phase of the NHS’s massive vaccine deployment effort. Around 1,560 GP-led “designated sites” will be the first places to issue the vaccine, initially to vulnerable groups, such as those who are shielding due to serious medical conditions and the over-80s.
 
Spursex said:
NHS prepares dozens of Covid mass vaccination centres around England
At least 42 sites are being made ready in arenas, conference centres and other large venues

Denis Campbell Health policy editor
Fri 20 Nov 2020 00.07 GMT Last modified on Fri 20 Nov 2020 04.37 GMT

An NHS flu vaccination station at Ascot racecourse, the sort of large venue that is ideal for the mass vaccination programme. Photograph: Maureen McLean/Rex/Shutterstock

The NHS is preparing to open dozens of mass vaccination centres across England to vaccinate people against Covid-19.
There will be at least 42 centres, based in places such as conference centres, and the NHS is planning to hire tens of thousands of staff to run them, the Health Service Journal reported.
The fresh details of how people will get the vaccine come as NHS England prepares to publish its “deployment plan” for how it will store, distribute and administer the vaccine.
Sir Simon Stevens, its chief executive, and Boris Johnson are expected to promote the plan during a press conference on Friday. The prime minister is currently self-isolating after close contact with a Conservative MP who tested positive for coronavirus.


There will be at least one mass vaccination centre in each of the NHS’s 42 sustainability and partnership areas and the centres will be sited in cities and larger towns.

The Guardian reported last week that each mass vaccination centre will vaccinate between 2,000 and 5,000 people a day.

Derby city council has offered the Derby Arena to the NHS as a venue for one of the centres. “The arena is a perfect venue. It has plenty of space, parking and good transport networks to serve Derby, Derbyshire and beyond,” said councillor Chris Poulter, the council’s leader. “It’s an honour for Derby to have the opportunity to play such a critical part in any vaccination programme.”

The NHS plans to hire 6,000 staff to run the centres in the south-east and 5,000 in London, suggesting that it will have to use 30,000 to 40,000 extra personnel, potentially for many months.

However, mass vaccination centres are likely to comprise the second phase of the NHS’s massive vaccine deployment effort. Around 1,560 GP-led “designated sites” will be the first places to issue the vaccine, initially to vulnerable groups, such as those who are shielding due to serious medical conditions and the over-80s.
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Does it really make sense to drag 2-5000 people a day into central points where if you haven’t already got the virus you must stand a good chance of catching it on the same day you get your first shot of vaccine.....look what happened with all the university students suddenly descending on towns and cities and the big increases in infection rates.

I understand the Pfizer vaccine has specialised storage requirements which make a distributed approach more difficult but the Oxford vaccine doesn’t suffer from that and although the logistics are more complex I hope they put the extra resources into local area GP surgeries with dedicated staff similar to the way my local practice handled the flu jabs this year, which avoided long queues in the rain of previous years.
 
Harry-Kari said:
Does it really make sense to drag 2-5000 people a day into central points where if you haven’t already got the virus you must stand a good chance of catching it on the same day you get your first shot of vaccine.....look what happened with all the university students suddenly descending on towns and cities and the big increases in infection rates.

I understand the Pfizer vaccine has specialised storage requirements which make a distributed approach more difficult but the Oxford vaccine doesn’t suffer from that and although the logistics are more complex I hope they put the extra resources into local area GP surgeries with dedicated staff similar to the way my local practice handled the flu jabs this year, which avoided long queues in the rain of previous years.
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The BMA are already moaning that even with all the extra funding they've had they will not be 'able to cope' - again the gov can't be right or wrong.

Personally, my preference is for mass vaccination centres where you know the precautions will be of a higher standard and the staff likely to be speciifically trained in the PPPE demands that it will require.

Afraid there are too many surgeries taking short-cuts on how to use PPE properly for my liking.
 
Spursex said:
Hold her close, do (as I know you do) everything you can to keep her safe; challenge those in authority and get the help and support you need, as I promise you I know better than most, in the end no matter how tough you are mentally or physically, it will drain you in ways you haven't even considered yet.

I've followed your posts about her and I know what you are dealing with.

So whilst taking care of her, don't be a macho-man - you'll need a break and help as much as you think you won't - if someone offers it, don't refuse, take it for what it's worth - a helping hand from someone that wants to be part of helping you both get to better and brighter days, and with luck and the help from your family and friends, she'll get stronger and better.

As you say, learning what to do without her is a lesson I hope you don't ever have to face anytime soon., and I know she'd say the same about you.
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EX a massive thank you for that thoughtful post and as I am regarded as a Macho man, lol!, I know exactly what you are saying/suggesting, so that is why a number of years ago I hired a Carer, she is very good by the way, to come in 6.5hrs x 5 days a week plus 2.5hrs on Saturday, it allows me to get on with things, ie..work outs, jobs about the home etc, without the constant worry, by knowing Mrs PY is in safe hands, and that was proved with the HA incident, also adding to that, in the missus's words...it keeps us both from getting under each other's skin. Lol!

Thanks again mate for your kindly thoughts.
 
Spursex said:
The BMA are already moaning that even with all the extra funding they've had they will not be 'able to cope' - again the gov can't be right or wrong.

Personally, my preference is for mass vaccination centres where you know the precautions will be of a higher standard and the staff likely to be speciifically trained in the PPPE demands that it will require.

Afraid there are too many surgeries taking short-cuts on how to use PPE properly for my liking.
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My local surgery takes it all very seriously and for the Flu jabs they had a separate temporary portacabin on the side of the main surgery with dedicated nurse practitioners to administer the vaccine by appointment only....no waiting room environment, masks and sanitisers etc....worked like a charm...I guess we are lucky..
 
Harry-Kari said:
My local surgery takes it all very seriously and for the Flu jabs they had a separate temporary portacabin on the side of the main surgery with dedicated nurse practitioners to administer the vaccine by appointment only....no waiting room environment, masks and sanitisers etc....worked like a charm...I guess we are lucky..
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To be fair, if they could all do that and the logistics sorted, I think we'd all welcome that approach to, but in city/town surgeries so often the space just isn't there.
 
Spursex said:
To be fair, if they could all do that and the logistics sorted, I think we'd all welcome that approach to, but in city/town surgeries so often the space just isn't there.
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Yes that is a problem...I guess major hubs in big cities makes sense for the people who live there, but not so much for the communities outside.
 
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