Clemence Set Up To Fail

[Gills77]

As far as I understand, SC was the proactive one, putting together some form of presentation that BG (jokingly) said was so impressive that he thought how could they not give him the job?

Being a football manager isn't about putting together presentations. That's a coach thing.

This is why he wasn't the right person for the job.

Management is about inspiring people. It's a personality thing.

 

[Gills77]

It’s getting a bit difficult to understand where the Galinsons are coming from. When they arrived they talked about sustainability, building a football philosophy, growing the club organically. All nice ideas and appointing Clemence seemed to neatly fit into that. Now we suddenly get a sacking because we didn’t achieve almost instant success. I admit that I’m a bit baffled by the way these positions seem to be polar opposites.

This was a terrible season in terms of consistency from the top sides.

It was probably one of the easiest seasons to get promoted.

We couldn't even beat FGR.

 

[Gills77]

We have become Watford esq as we're looking on our third manager (when hes appointed) in under 9 months and if we're giving managers 6 months and then giving them the boot. BG has set a dangerous precedent IMO.

What the football side needs is stability.

If our owners expect any manager to come in, especially mid season and implement the changes expected their nieve and if they believed SC would/could do that, again IMO it shows their lack of football savy.

I've said many a time I wasn't convinced by SC but IMO he deserved a decent fair crack at the job (and that isn't 6 months from Nov-Apr).

I also said back him or sack him, which they've done, so let's now hope they properly back the next guy and give him the tools to do the job (pace and decent strikers/goalscorer) and give him the whole season. Anything less will say more about the owners and football board than the next incumbent IMO.

Clemence had no managerial experience. He was therefore like a probationer and unfortunately he failed probationary period.

 

[LancsGordoRoad]

Being a football manager isn't about putting together presentations. That's a coach thing.

This is why he wasn't the right person for the job.

Management is about inspiring people. It's a personality thing.

I`m not the biggest fan of football`s progressive analytics, not really to my taste. However, something more palatable is the importance of us fans maintaining a Pie Chart - and without doubt the clear winner in 23/24 was Harrogate`s Steak & Gravy.

 

[Lark]

Being a football manager isn't about putting together presentations. That's a coach thing.

This is why he wasn't the right person for the job.

Management is about inspiring people. It's a personality thing.

He was appointed as a head coach, not a manager.
Basically because we have already got a director for football and a head of recruitment, two people he was expected to work with.
What’s surprised me is that those two haven’t been shown the door as well, as both have failed as equally as Clemence.

 

[JoeScout]

Don't disagree with any of that. The question is is the coach manager being given the tools needed to do the job. You cant coach goalscoring, just like you cant coach pace into players. Its difficult to win games and score goals when you have players that can't hit and barn door with a banjo. Doesn't matter who the coach/manager is. This isn't just a Clemence problem, or a NH one for that matter.

I completely disagree with that. Pretty much everything involved in goalscoring involves a coachable trait. You can coach players to find space, you can coach one-touch finishing, you can coach players to hit the corner of the goal by constant training of that skill, you can coach a player to be more aware of when and where to make their movements, you can coach an attacking unit to have patterns of play to open up goalscoring opportunities (it's true, other teams actively do this). Composure comes with consistent and regular successful repetitions of a positive action, in this case kicking a ball in a net past a goalkeeper.

You can work on mental aspects with a player, you can work on their confidence, help them understand where they need to be - one of my favourite ones at the moment is with Unai Emery and Ollie Watkins, as apparently all Emery has done is tell Watkins not to spend too much time running out wide and instead stay in the middle where he can score goals. Hardly rocket science, but Emery is hailed as a genius for doing it. I mean, he IS a genius, but not for that. But it's an easy example of coaching a player to get more out of him in a goalscoring sense.

Sure, you still get what I suppose you could term a 'natural' goalscorer who will need less work on these things, but to suggest you can't improve a player's ability to score a goal through coaching just isn't true.

 

[NWBluesFan]

As far as I understand, SC was the proactive one, putting together some form of presentation that BG (jokingly) said was so impressive that he thought how could they not give him the job?

That's an interesting take.

It makes me wonder a) How you know this? and b) If it is legitimate, who inside the club opened their mouth to divulge it. That would have to have been a small room you'd hope would be sealed for stuff like that.

That said, if doing a presentation blew our team's mind, I'm more worried about those appraising him than him actually doing it. That's a pretty low bar of expectation for anyone alive in 2024...

 

[Gills77]

He was appointed as a head coach, not a manager.
Basically because we have already got a director for football and a head of recruitment, two people he was expected to work with.
What’s surprised me is that those two haven’t been shown the door as well, as both have failed as equally as Clemence.

Whilst you are correct about head coach, a manager figure is still required. Somebody needs to motivate/encourage..... lead.

And that's the manager/head coach.

Do you honestly think he was a motivator?

 

[Lark]

Whilst you are correct about head coach, a manager figure is still required. Somebody needs to motivate/encourage..... lead.

And that's the manager/head coach.

Do you honestly think he was a motivator?

No, I thought he was the wrong choice from the start. Stockdale came across as the more motivational type, with Clemence the tactician.
It turns out that Clemence was likely only the third choice in the end anyway, after Maher and Lindsey, but changing the “head coach” mid season will always make it harder to get who you want in.
We shouldn’t have that problem this time, I think that’s partly why they have done it now and not waited until October / November.

 

[GillsBluenose]

That's an interesting take.

It makes me wonder a) How you know this? and b) If it is legitimate, who inside the club opened their mouth to divulge it. That would have to have been a small room you'd hope would be sealed for stuff like that.

That said, if doing a presentation blew our team's mind, I'm more worried about those appraising him than him actually doing it. That's a pretty low bar of expectation for anyone alive in 2024...

I am sure it was on one of BG's own X posts or similar, but he may have been light hearted. I am pretty certain it was to show he was impressed by how thorough SC was and then added the comment along the lines of how could we not appoint him after that?

You have to remember that BG is pretty open which is refreshing IMO. This article is worth revisiting with the "four core elements", based on developments this week:

Brad | "We are pretty much there"

Brad Galinson is hopeful of announcing a new Manager or Head Coach later this week.

www.gillinghamfootballclub.com

Will those elements still apply when making another choice, considering he was saying they were non negotiable?

 

[LancsGordoRoad]

I completely disagree with that. Pretty much everything involved in goalscoring involves a coachable trait. You can coach players to find space, you can coach one-touch finishing, you can coach players to hit the corner of the goal by constant training of that skill, you can coach a player to be more aware of when and where to make their movements, you can coach an attacking unit to have patterns of play to open up goalscoring opportunities (it's true, other teams actively do this). Composure comes with consistent and regular successful repetitions of a positive action, in this case kicking a ball in a net past a goalkeeper.

You can work on mental aspects with a player, you can work on their confidence, help them understand where they need to be - one of my favourite ones at the moment is with Unai Emery and Ollie Watkins, as apparently all Emery has done is tell Watkins not to spend too much time running out wide and instead stay in the middle where he can score goals. Hardly rocket science, but Emery is hailed as a genius for doing it. I mean, he IS a genius, but not for that. But it's an easy example of coaching a player to get more out of him in a goalscoring sense.

Sure, you still get what I suppose you could term a 'natural' goalscorer who will need less work on these things, but to suggest you can't improve a player's ability to score a goal through coaching just isn't true.

I get what you say, including the coaching ingredients that combine to improve the prospect of a player scoring a goal. You and NW Blues might disagree (with my take) with the spirit of the following comment, I don`t know, but it was said this season about GFC, specifically alluding to not being able to coach some of the raw aspects when it comes to scoring goals.

*"one of the hardest things to coach in football is scoring goals. You can get players, teams, into the right areas but there comes a point where players have to produce a final pass or a final shot - which comes down to a football player, really. When you cross the white line having that ability to carry out and execute a final pass or finish"

I read that as, in the final analysis - training ground is one thing, game time is another and Calibre is a big factor when it comes to scoring. Confidence is another, of course.

Anyone recognise whose words these * were ?

 

[Captainreblue]

I completely disagree with that. Pretty much everything involved in goalscoring involves a coachable trait. You can coach players to find space, you can coach one-touch finishing, you can coach players to hit the corner of the goal by constant training of that skill, you can coach a player to be more aware of when and where to make their movements, you can coach an attacking unit to have patterns of play to open up goalscoring opportunities (it's true, other teams actively do this). Composure comes with consistent and regular successful repetitions of a positive action, in this case kicking a ball in a net past a goalkeeper.

You can work on mental aspects with a player, you can work on their confidence, help them understand where they need to be - one of my favourite ones at the moment is with Unai Emery and Ollie Watkins, as apparently all Emery has done is tell Watkins not to spend too much time running out wide and instead stay in the middle where he can score goals. Hardly rocket science, but Emery is hailed as a genius for doing it. I mean, he IS a genius, but not for that. But it's an easy example of coaching a player to get more out of him in a goalscoring sense.

Sure, you still get what I suppose you could term a 'natural' goalscorer who will need less work on these things, but to suggest you can't improve a player's ability to score a goal through coaching just isn't true.

Have you actually tried coaching it. All good saying it, try doing it. If its so easy to coach players to be a goalscorer why isn't every player a striker if its that easy.Why hasn't every clu got a 15/goal a season striker if its 'coachable'? Being a striker is where the kudos and money is. Why, because it isn't that simple.

Much of being a striker is about instinct, movement, vision and aticipation and reading of the game. Yes you can practice but coach it to be natural and in game, no.

 

[JoeScout]

Have you actually tried coaching it. All good saying it, try doing it. If its so easy to coach players to be a goalscorer why isn't every player a striker if its that easy.Why hasn't every clu got a 15/goal a season striker if its 'coachable'? Being a striker is where the kudos and money is. Why, because it isn't that simple.

Much of being a striker is about instinct, movement, vision and aticipation and reading of the game. Yes you can practice but coach it to be natural and in game, no.

Your words initially were 'you can't coach goalscoring'.

My belief is that you can improve pretty much every trait involved in goalscoring given time and dedication. I never said it was easy, you're trying to put words in my mouth there. A good coach will improve the players he's working with given time and willingness from both parties. If players/coaches stayed in one place for a bit they'd probably benefit.

For the record yes I was coaching for a number of years. I was also quite a bad coach which is why I don't do it anymore, but even I was able to get my teams playing with some patterns of play and left some players better footballers than when I arrived.

 

[LancsGordoRoad]

Have you actually tried coaching it. All good saying it, try doing it. If its so easy to coach players to be a goalscorer why isn't every player a striker if its that easy.Why hasn't every clu got a 15/goal a season striker if its 'coachable'? Being a striker is where the kudos and money is. Why, because it isn't that simple.

Much of being a striker is about instinct, movement, vision and aticipation and reading of the game. Yes you can practice but coach it to be natural and in game, no.

It`s why good ones cost so much.

 

[jokerman]

I coached under 14's for several years. They were rubbish, and what I bring to the game was wasted on them. I would say I did better when I had better players.

 

[Captainreblue]

Your words initially were 'you can't coach goalscoring'.

My belief is that you can improve pretty much every trait involved in goalscoring given time and dedication. I never said it was easy, you're trying to put words in my mouth there. A good coach will improve the players he's working with given time and willingness from both parties. If players/coaches stayed in one place for a bit they'd probably benefit.

For the record yes I was coaching for a number of years. I was also quite a bad coach which is why I don't do it anymore, but even I was able to get my teams playing with some patterns of play and left some players better footballers than when I arrived.

But strikers (and players in general) work on their skills every day in training, or should do, wherever you play on the pitch. Of course the idea of repetitive training and coaching is to improve players, that's a given, but as I said, most decent goalscorers work on instinct, movement, reading the game and antisipation which is not something you'll find in the coaching manual.

Every team wants that goalscorer, not many have them.

 

[Whisky Gill]

I`m not the biggest fan of football`s progressive analytics, not really to my taste. However, something more palatable is the importance of us fans maintaining a Pie Chart - and without doubt the clear winner in 23/24 was Harrogate`s Steak & Gravy.

Any good veggie ones out there Lancs?

 

[Archiepoptart]

Any good veggie ones out there Lancs?

Are you mad Sir. A veggie pie is the very definition of an abomination. Even sea food is stretching it a bit

 

[nibbles]

But strikers (and players in general) work on their skills every day in training, or should do, wherever you play on the pitch. Of course the idea of repetitive training and coaching is to improve players, that's a given, but as I said, most decent goalscorers work on instinct, movement, reading the game and antisipation which is not something you'll find in the coaching manual.

Every team wants that goalscorer, not many have them.

I largely agree that putting the ball in the back of the net is more on the players than the coach. If you look at all the chances we’ve missed this season I’m not sure it’s so much down to technique as confidence/composure (which is also something that can be coached but I’d imagine most head coaches specialise in the technical side of things).

However, I did see an interesting interview with Lindsey, talking about their top scorer Orsi.

Their stats based recruitment identified that he was a player greatly underperforming his xG. While this put off most clubs, Crawley/Lindsey took the positive that he was at least in the right place at the right time and identified improvements (the way he addressed the ball) that would see him putting away more of those chances.

It’s obviously worked and he’s having the season of his life so far.

 

[Whisky Gill]

Are you mad Sir. A veggie pie is the very definition of an abomination. Even sea food is stretching it a bit

Well Archie, Mrs Whisky makes a cracking veggie mince chilli pie and who doesn't love a cheese and onion one. I guess the answer is fgr.