Clemence Set Up To Fail | Page 2 | Vital Football

Clemence Set Up To Fail

shotshy said:
There is not a football manager in the country at lower league level who has ‘his own players’ to work with.
SC was employed very specifically as first team coach to improve the players who were at the club.
Unfortunately for him, he failed at that task and also failed to achieve his targets.
It’s personally sad for him but the right decision for the club, in my opinion.
If the next guy is given the same target and also fails, we can expect the same result.
If we employ a new manager and Brad says just do your best, then that’s different.
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Don't disagree with any of that. The question is is the coach manager being given the tools needed to do the job. You cant coach goalscoring, just like you cant coach pace into players. Its difficult to win games and score goals when you have players that can't hit and barn door with a banjo. Doesn't matter who the coach/manager is. This isn't just a Clemence problem, or a NH one for that matter.
 
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HerrLjunga said:
It's easier to sack an underperforming manager than get shot of a dozen or so players all on contract. The players are probably even more culpable than Clem or Harris for this season, but they're not as easy to move on.
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Agreed but if the players are the problem getting rid of the manager doesn't solve the problem
 
It's difficult to see past the fact that two successive head coaches have seemingly been held more accountable than the recruitment team for issues that in many respects boil down to the failure to sign a capable striker who was fit in time to influence the season under either of them. Although we don't know exactly what goes on with the division of their responsibilities I would love to know what head coach could have improved the goalscoring options available to him in Clemence's place.

We may have another man attempting to show us whether it's possible if the upcoming summer transfer window goes as well as the last two.
 
Captainreblue said:
Don't disagree with any of that. The question is is the coach manager being given the tools needed to do the job. You cant coach goalscoring, just like you cant coach pace into players. Its difficult to win games and score goals when you have players that can't hit and barn door with a banjo. Doesn't matter who the coach/manager is. This isn't just a Clemence problem, or a NH one for that matter.
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Many of our points dropped this season have been because of Clem being ultra conservative in his substitutions. Example, chasing the points and replacing one forward with a midfielder or defender instead of going for it.
 
shotshy said:
Many of our points dropped this season have been because of Clem being ultra conservative in his substitutions. Example, chasing the points and replacing one forward with a midfielder or defender instead of going for it.
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We've failed to obtain far more points by not having anyone to stick the ball in the back of the net or create chances.

I don't think Clemence was necessarily the long term answer but we've set a very dangerous precedent sacking a coach after just 6 months. That's where the judgement bar is now set.

If we're sacking Clemence, the re cruitment department should be quickly behind him as they've failed as much, if not more so in their job.
 
I can see what the original poster means.
But if Clemence sold himself as being able to improve players already at the club there was very limited evidence of that.We don't know exactly what was Brad's bottom line.My own view is that finishing on a high with two or three wins at home and just missing the playoffs might have been enough.We will never know.
 
Captainreblue said:
Agreed but if the players are the problem getting rid of the manager doesn't solve the problem
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But it's not that binary, both parties need to shoulder the blame for our underwhelming season.

The same players were able to make higher division sides in Southampton and Charlton look like rank amateurs earlier in the season (one performance for each manager), so why couldn't they play like that consistently for either boss?

Clem was culpable with some of his tactical decisions and his substitutions, well, you could set your watch by them at 60 minutes regardless of how we seemed to be doing. His persistence with certain players that just were not delivering was also questionable.
 
shotshy said:
Chuck into the mix that Harris was originally charged with keeping Cambridge in the division and they did and then the same at Millwall and they did.
Experience and nous counts for a lot in football.
A ground out three points is still three points.
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That is very true, and maybe says that Harris can persuade owners that he can get teams out of trouble and on a better footing but does not convince them that he can get their club promoted playing breath taking football.

He does have experience of getting a team to the Championship play offs but if the owners and the support then start having higher ambitions about style of play, etc, and regard that as more important, then they quickly look elsewhere as BG did, seemingly without doing the necessary research.

If Moyes goes at West Ham due to some of their fans moaning about not playing the "West Ham way" it will be interesting to see their direction of travel afterwards and whether the same fans will have reason to moan about that.
 
HerrLjunga said:
But it's not that binary, both parties need to shoulder the blame for our underwhelming season.

The same players were able to make higher division sides in Southampton and Charlton look like rank amateurs earlier in the season (one performance for each manager), so why couldn't they play like that consistently for either boss?

Clem was culpable with some of his tactical decisions and his substitutions, well, you could set your watch by them at 60 minutes regardless of how we seemed to be doing. His persistence with certain players that just were not delivering was also questionable.
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Agree, I'm just not sure our owners (or the people/person advising them- maybe for self preservation) are seeing it that way.

They seem to think that sack the coach and all will be rosey. 2 coaches later and its proved not to be so.
 
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It’s getting a bit difficult to understand where the Galinsons are coming from. When they arrived they talked about sustainability, building a football philosophy, growing the club organically. All nice ideas and appointing Clemence seemed to neatly fit into that. Now we suddenly get a sacking because we didn’t achieve almost instant success. I admit that I’m a bit baffled by the way these positions seem to be polar opposites.
 
Therealwaldo said:
It’s getting a bit difficult to understand where the Galinsons are coming from. When they arrived they talked about sustainability, building a football philosophy, growing the club organically. All nice ideas and appointing Clemence seemed to neatly fit into that. Now we suddenly get a sacking because we didn’t achieve almost instant success. I admit that I’m a bit baffled by the way these positions seem to be polar opposites.
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Possibly they are splitting the operation into separate on & off the park businesses in effect? The former being a more short term project than the latter perhaps?

Also comes back to what I've said before. Successful business people have high expectations of others & are less accepting of what they perceive as failure.

Far easier to dismiss a manager or head coach than to develop a sustainable business.
 
Therealwaldo said:
It’s getting a bit difficult to understand where the Galinsons are coming from. When they arrived they talked about sustainability, building a football philosophy, growing the club organically. All nice ideas and appointing Clemence seemed to neatly fit into that. Now we suddenly get a sacking because we didn’t achieve almost instant success. I admit that I’m a bit baffled by the way these positions seem to be polar opposites.
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I think they spoke about getting the right people in (the experts) and trusting them to do their jobs.

For whatever reason their confidence in Clemence and Stockdale has dropped.

Having said that if they really are trusting their experts to do their jobs then this would be on Joe Comper (with their approval).
 
BlueToTheGills said:
We built a squad in the summer with a manager that was very much safety first. A team more likely to grind out a win then play fancy football.

Brad decides the football isn't what he and many of us want to watch and Harris gets the chop. He appoints a manager stating he wants "We wanted to make sure that naturally, the person we appoint is above all brave, courageous, takes risks, front-footed, expansive, entertains and wins at the same time."

That squad wasn't built for that type of football and still isn't so was always going to take several transfer windows. Clemence got one and I think three of the four signings looked a step forward. Whilst Walker struggled Hutton has certainly delived more balls into the box and Andrews looks like he could be an exciting player next season. He got injured in the B game and was therefore out for a lot longer whilst Hurtado looked like he could set the league alight at least in brief spells.

At the last Fans forum Kenny Jackett still suggested it was possible for us to go on a run and make the top 3 putting more pressure on the manager. I think a more experienced manager would have said this team isn't built for front-footed, expansive entertaining football. What's the priority getting promoted or trying to change the style of football because that will take was always likely to need several transfer windows? In fact I would suggest our DOF should already have said that to Brad.

Look at Doncaster with Grant McCann, he had the summer to get recruitment right and obviously it wasn't quite right, a few changes in January and they went from near bottom to the playoffs. How long would he have lasted here?

I did have concerns Clemence would get shown the door in October with us struggling again to do anything more then look particuarly average but I was encouraged by the signing of Andrews and to a lesser degress Hutton and I thought a few more signings of that calibre in the right positions could make a big difference.

I just hope we get the appointment right this time. Is the new man going to get much chance to bring in his players or will Hess and Kenny have built his squad for him? Even if we get a new manager in quickly how is he going to assess his squad now the season is over. Watch DVD's of how players played under instructions of previous mangers or go on reputation alone? Would suggest that we might be a bit slow in Summer transfer market unless we bring in a local experienced league 2 manager.
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I think it’s highly likely that Harris was under instruction to play a more expansive type of football I’d be amazed too if he he was satisfied with the goal return despite grinding out results. I’m under the impression he wanted Bonne and he certainly mentioned that he had previously looked at Nadesan whilst at Millwall so to some respect he got players that he wanted, i doubt they were his first choice but how many managers up and down the land have to settle for second or third best. Having recruited players with good records at this level you’d be hard pushed to find anyone that would have predicted such dire and low scoring football. My point I guess is that I can see why these decisions have been made, Harris wasn’t pulling up trees and it certainly felt the wins were some what fortuitous rather than dominating games. I believe the decision to remove Harris was premature but I totally understood it. Clemence probably came in claiming he would improve x, y and z. In reality not much improved, I genuinely did think the football was better if only marginal but in order to play more freely we sacrificed what had actually got us the results in the first place. I don’t want to become a club that hires and fires and would have liked for clemence to have been given the summer however I totally get the decision. When SC was appointed he knew what team we had and he obviously felt he could a tune out of them, would he have said in the interview process that under his stewardship we would continue to slide down the table and be almost as pathetic and lackluster in front of goal. Ultimately he had an objective and failed and as a result the owners have huge question marks regarding him. Some managers need time to assemble a team but others don’t and I don’t always buy into needing another transfer window. Pulis came in and built a promotion side in a summer, Evans done it with Stevenage and look at the job Scott Lindsey did in the summer. I guess Clemence didn’t do enough to suggest he would get it right, he didn’t convince anyone enough.
 
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Captainreblue said:
Don't disagree with any of that. The question is is the coach manager being given the tools needed to do the job. You cant coach goalscoring, just like you cant coach pace into players. Its difficult to win games and score goals when you have players that can't hit and barn door with a banjo. Doesn't matter who the coach/manager is. This isn't just a Clemence problem, or a NH one for that matter.
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Jeez Captain! I’ve said it many times now.

The recruitment team bought midfielders with proven goal scoring capabilities. Dieng, Lapslie and Williams all scored goals for fun at Exeter, Mansfield and Swindon. There are goals in the team for sure. They’ve underperformed and that is, ultimately, down to the coach. I mentioned on the other thread that they should have contributed 20 more goals if they continued scoring at the same rate as they did at their former clubs.

The recruitment team also captured some good defenders in Ogie, Masterson and Hutton.

I accept that attacking wise they’ve failed miserably. And players like Hutado and Andrews have been injured.

But you’re really exaggerating about the quality of the recruitment.
 
Therealwaldo said:
It’s getting a bit difficult to understand where the Galinsons are coming from. When they arrived they talked about sustainability, building a football philosophy, growing the club organically. All nice ideas and appointing Clemence seemed to neatly fit into that. Now we suddenly get a sacking because we didn’t achieve almost instant success. I admit that I’m a bit baffled by the way these positions seem to be polar opposites.
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Great post. Someone with some sanity…
 
It seems pretty clear that we need to be in League 1 (at least), for their whole business plan to work, and failure is not tolerated.
I think Brad said you can’t be profitable as a club in League 2, when talking to Radio Kent on Saturday.
 
Lark said:
It seems pretty clear that we need to be in League 1 (at least), for their whole business plan to work, and failure is not tolerated.
I think Brad said you can’t be profitable as a club in League 2, when talking to Radio Kent on Saturday.
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League 1 must be the only league it is then. If Brad don't like the cost of league 2 I don't think he fancy the championship. Record losses going on there.
 
BlueToTheGills said:
League 1 must be the only league it is then. If Brad don't like the cost of league 2 I don't think he fancy the championship. Record losses going on there.
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Probably more to do with the pitiful away followings down here. League One is our natural level anyway
 
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