Bury | Page 27 | Vital Football

Bury

12.2.3
during the period between the conclusion of the last Play-Off Match and the start of the following Season, its playing record shall not be expunged but the number of relegation places from the Division in which a Club would have played (in this case I read that to mean League 1 as that is the League they would have been playing in) but for its cessation of membership, shall be reduced by the number of Clubs ceasing to be members and, during that Season, the relevant Division shall operate with a reduced number of Clubs.

To me, that clearly means League 1 will have a reduced number of 23 clubs.
 
I have just found this in an article on PlymouthLive - it deals mainly with the Ryan Lowe link but also mentions a possible reprieve if Bury fail:

"Bury's financial situation is perhaps key to all of this. The Shakers are in a real mess right now, to the extent where club offices are closed and their very existence is at risk. There is even a slim chance that Argyle could face a League One reprieve if the club are expelled by the EFL."

https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/sport/conspiracy-theories-managerial-merry-go-2913805

It would be nice if someone at the EFL would clarify.
 
Bazzzer said:
I read that as League 1 shall operate with 23 clubs next season with one fewer (i.e. 3) being relegated next season. League 2 isn't mentioned and, presumably, not affected, Plymouth being allocated according to their relegation.
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That's how I read it too - (Bury's record/promotion stands). As Caroline would say "let's have a mass debate"
 
Scotimp said:
The answer lies within Section 3 of the EFL regulations:

12.2
Cessation of membership. If a Club (or Clubs) ceases to be a member of The League for any reason (including, without limitation, pursuant to Article 4 of the Articles of Association or by way of relegation or expulsion for disciplinary reasons):
12.2.1
during any Normal Playing Season, its playing record shall be expunged and the number of relegation places from the relevant Division for that Season shall be reduced by the number of Clubs ceasing to be members;
12.2.2
during the period between the end of the Normal Playing Season and the conclusion of the last Play-Off Match for that Season, its playing record shall not be expunged but the number of relegation places from the relevant Division for that Season shall be reduced by the number of Clubs ceasing to be members; or
12.2.3
during the period between the conclusion of the last Play-Off Match and the start of the following Season, its playing record shall not be expunged but the number of relegation places from the Division in which a Club would have played but for its cessation of membership, shall be reduced by the number of Clubs ceasing to be members and, during that Season, the relevant Division shall operate with a reduced number of Clubs.

That isn't very well written, but I think it means Plymouth will stay in League One and League Two will have 23 clubs next season.
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Yes just had that told to me by someone else who said that despite how confusing it reads that's what will happen. So Plymouth would take over Bury's fixtures and Plymouth's fixtures in League 2 would be nulled. Therefore only 1 team would be relegated from League 2 the following season.

So from a purely selfish point of view we won't lose a fixture but the poor clubs in League 2 would. For the sake of their fans I really hope Bury survive.
 
Scotimp said:
12.2.3
during the period between the conclusion of the last Play-Off Match and the start of the following Season, its playing record shall not be expunged but the number of relegation places from the Division in which a Club would have played but for its cessation of membership, shall be reduced by the number of Clubs ceasing to be members and, during that Season, the relevant Division shall operate with a reduced number of Clubs.

That isn't very well written, but I think it means Plymouth will stay in League One and League Two will have 23 clubs next season.
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It reads as though L1 would operate with 23 clubs next season, with L2 unaffected. Not sure how that would impact promotion and relegation berths for the end of next season though. Hopefully it will not come to this, but the future does look bleak for them.

Logically, you would presume that no club is reprieved this year. Where Bury had fixtures next season, these would become free dates for their opponents, with just three relegation spots next year in L1, and just one relegation spot next year in L2. But when have football authorities resorted to logic? I don’t see any case for Argyle being given a reprieve.
 
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Appreciating that the fixtures are generated by a computer the fact that Bury's fate is probably sorted the day before the fixtures are released I suspect that if they fold League 1 will operate with 23 teams as it would fall into the too hard to deal with box to simply place Plymouth into Bury's fixtures.
Of course they could simply decide to delay the fixtures until the following week which should give them ample opportunity to make alterations
 
sedgleyimp said:
Appreciating that the fixtures are generated by a computer the fact that Bury's fate is probably sorted the day before the fixtures are released I suspect that if they fold League 1 will operate with 23 teams.
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That's the way I read it and see it too.

Furthermore, the clubs are given sight of the fixtures before they are released to the unwashed, to allow individual clubs/police et al to request changes/adjustments to take into account local conditions. In the case of the Imps they will ideally want an away fixture the weekend of the Christmas Market. There will be a myriad more that apply to other clubs that are not readily apparent.

Therefore in a sane World its just not feasible to transfer Bury's fixtures to Plymouth after they have been released, but on the flip this is the EFL we are talking about!

Last but not least, Plymouth were not good enough last season and don't deserve a reprieve.
 
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buckielugger said:
Do EFL clubs lodge a bond with the League? I know that happens in other leagues sometimes.
Asking as if Bury go bust and Lge1 drops to 23 teams then all clubs miss out on one home game and a bond could therefore compensate all the clubs.
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Yes they do, I believe it is known as the league share. The share is lodged when a club is promoted from none league to the EFL and taken away when they are relegated.

I have no idea if it used to compensate for a blank fixture due to the league running shorthanded. But, I very much doubt it.
 
Read somewhere Mr Dale has been involved 41 businesses and 35 have gone bust!
That fit and proper person must be so difficult to pass!!!!
Disgraceful stuff for the staff, players and fans that their club are being run by a total cretin!
 
Apparently the fit and proper person test takes 8 months to complete. Mr Dale will have come and gone by then. Why it would take 8 months is anyone's guess. A full disclosure up front and failure to disclose resulting in an automatic failure, should make the whole process more open and easier to operate.
 
sounds unlikely. not many struggling clubs needing a new owner can afford to wait 8 months...

prime example would be bury right now. their new owner would be 'fit' to take over in january.
 
Luke Imp said:
Piece here.

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...day-winding-up-petition-debt?CMP=share_btn_tw
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Well if that's all true then heaven knows how they are going to make it. So the owner has now confirmed that they are £8million plus in debt and it is going up by the day. Just one of the loans is going up with interest by £1500 per day on it's own (so that will have gone up another £100,000 before the season even starts). Plus all the other debts and outstanding wages, Tax Bill at £800,000 and going up daily as well. What an unbelievable mess!
 
Wasn't sure where to put this, but we'll stick it in here seen as we're talking about finances. Can't vouch for the accuracy because I didn't put it together.

2017-18 Net profit and loss
1 Tottenham £113m
2 Liverpool £106m
3 Chelsea £62m
4 Arsenal £57m
5 Burnley £37m
6 Southampton £29m
7 Newcastle £19m
8 Hull £19m
9 West Ham £17m
10 Norwich £15m
11 Barnsley £13m
12 Huddersfield £11m
13 Brighton £11m
14 Manchester City £10m
15 Exeter £2.4m
16 Leicester £1m
17 Preston £1m
18 Port Vale £1m
19 Stevenage £0.8m
20 Luton £0.6m
21 Peterborough £0.5m
22 Forest Green £0.4
23 Accrington £0.4m
24 Fleetwood £0.4m
25 Burton £0.3m
26 Shrewsbury £0.3m
27 Gillingham £0.1m
28 Plymouth £0.1m
29 Newport £0.1m
30 Yeovil £0.1m
31 Walsall no profit/loss
32 Barnet no profit/loss
33 Grimsby -£0.04m
34 Cheltenham -£0.1m
35 Carlisle -£0.1m
36 Mansfield -£0.1m
37 Bradford -£0.3m
38 Rochdale -£0.3m
39 Crawley -£0.3m
40 Morecambe -£0.4m
41 Oldham -£0.5m
42 Rotherham -£0.5m
43 Wimbledon -£0.5m
44 Wycombe -£0.7m
45 Crewe -£0.8m
46 Cambridge -£0.8m
47 Chesterfield -£1.1m
48 Lincoln -£1.1m
49 Derby -£1.1m
50 Portsmouth -£1.4m
51 Notts County -£1.5m
52 Swindon -£1.8m
53 Sheffield Utd -£1.9m
54 Northampton -£2m
55 Oxford -£2m
56 Blackpool -£2.1m
57 Coventry -£2.5m
58 Doncaster -£2.8m
59 Bury -£2.8m
60 Swansea -£3m
61 Southend -£3.1m
62 Colchester -£3m
63 Bristol Rovers -£3m
64 Scunthorpe -£3.6m
65 Brentford -£3.9m
66 Leeds -£4.3m
67 MK Dons -£4.6m
68 Millwall -£4.6m
69 Ipswich -£5.2m
70 Bolton -£5.4m
71 Nottingham Forest -£5.6m
72 West Brom -£6m
73 Middlesbrough -£6.6m
74 Wigan -£7.7m
75 Sunderland -£10.2m
76 Charlton -£10.4m
77 Bournemouth -£11m
78 Everton -£13m
79 Blackburn -£16.8m
80 Reading -£21m
81 Sheffield Wed -£21m
82 Bristol City -£25m
83 Watford -£31m
84 Stoke -£32m
85 Aston Villa -£35m
86 Cardiff -£36m
87 Crystal Palace -£36m
88 Manchester Utd -£37m
89 Birmingham -£37m
90 QPR -£38m
91 Fulham -£45m
92 Wolves -£57m
 
Some of that is beyond belief.

"...promotion to League One, achieved against a backdrop of problems..."
No, promotion was achieved because of those problems, not in spite of them; and continuing to overspend last season is an integral part of making what was already a huge problem even worse.

"The loan was recorded in Bury’s last published accounts, for the year to 31 May 2017..."
Will we ever see the accounts to 31 May 2018? Is the EFL not in the slightest bit concerned by that?

"[Stewart Day said] that he was, 'leaving the club in a stronger position than it was in when I arrived'."
A tiny misrepresentation there?

"Dale...has said the club’s financial problems are much worse than he had realised when he agreed to take it on."
No due diligence carried out, then? If not, why not?

"[Dale] said he had believed that Day left only personal loans to the club, which were effectively written off when Day sold the club to Dale for £1."
The accounts to 31 May 2017 stated otherwise. The Mederco Loan is clearly shown (as £4,275,982) and due within one year.

"Bury face a winding-up petition on 19 June led by HMRC – Dale said the unpaid tax bill is now up to £800,000."
That is a very far cry from the amount originally believed. How the hell did they persuade the court to give them more time on 10 April and again on 15 May? That amount does not include the debt owed to Chris Brass, so the original WUP is worth close to a million alone.

"[Dale] may transfer the stadium to a company he has formed, Bury Leisure Ltd, and the club could pay rent to play there until he is personally paid off. Some of the club’s trophies and memorabilia have been transferred to another new Dale company, Bury Heritage; Dale has denied that this is asset stripping..."
Bury FC Leisure Ltd and Bury FC Heritage Ltd were both incorporated on 18 December 2018, exactly five days after Dale took over the club (for £1, by the way).

Dead club walking.
 
Scotimp said:
Some of that is beyond belief.

"...promotion to League One, achieved against a backdrop of problems..."
No, promotion was achieved because of those problems, not in spite of them; and continuing to overspend last season is an integral part of making what was already a huge problem even worse.

"The loan was recorded in Bury’s last published accounts, for the year to 31 May 2017..."
Will we ever see the accounts to 31 May 2018? Is the EFL not in the slightest bit concerned by that?

"[Stewart Day said] that he was, 'leaving the club in a stronger position than it was in when I arrived'."
A tiny misrepresentation there?

"Dale...has said the club’s financial problems are much worse than he had realised when he agreed to take it on."
No due diligence carried out, then? If not, why not?

"[Dale] said he had believed that Day left only personal loans to the club, which were effectively written off when Day sold the club to Dale for £1."
The accounts to 31 May 2017 stated otherwise. The Mederco Loan is clearly shown (as £4,275,982) and due within one year.

"Bury face a winding-up petition on 19 June led by HMRC – Dale said the unpaid tax bill is now up to £800,000."
That is a very far cry from the amount originally believed. How the hell did they persuade the court to give them more time on 10 April and again on 15 May? That amount does not include the debt owed to Chris Brass, so the original WUP is worth close to a million alone.

"[Dale] may transfer the stadium to a company he has formed, Bury Leisure Ltd, and the club could pay rent to play there until he is personally paid off. Some of the club’s trophies and memorabilia have been transferred to another new Dale company, Bury Heritage; Dale has denied that this is asset stripping..."
Bury FC Leisure Ltd and Bury FC Heritage Ltd were both incorporated on 18 December 2018, exactly five days after Dale took over the club (for £1, by the way).

Dead club walking.
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dale appears to have been gifted all 8,000,000 merderco shares in bury [merderco is day's company], and was also allowed to buy 3,000,000 bury shares for £1.
so, who sets the purchase price for the bury shares - the shareholders as a whole? or day individually - as person of significant interest?

also, the big question for me... what was in the deal for day?
 
The Electric Banana said:
That's the way I read it and see it too.

Furthermore, the clubs are given sight of the fixtures before they are released to the unwashed, to allow individual clubs/police et al to request changes/adjustments to take into account local conditions. In the case of the Imps they will ideally want an away fixture the weekend of the Christmas Market. There will be a myriad more that apply to other clubs that are not readily apparent.

Therefore in a sane World its just not feasible to transfer Bury's fixtures to Plymouth after they have been released, but on the flip this is the EFL we are talking about!

Last but not least, Plymouth were not good enough last season and don't deserve a reprieve.
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It really annoys me that we get away fixtures every time its the Lincoln Christmas Market.
It would make an excellent weekend if they stopped doing this. Especially for exiles.
 
buckielugger said:
It really annoys me that we get away fixtures every time its the Lincoln Christmas Market.
It would make an excellent weekend if they stopped doing this. Especially for exiles.
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Not sure everyone will agree with you on that. I would say a fair number of Exiles avoid Lincoln like the plague when the Christmas Market is on.
 
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