Brexit rolls on...

[Strett]

And every single one of them are "tax dodging twats", including pretty much all current and past British drivers.

I wonder if our angry friend believes that Mr Marinakis pays all his taxes?

I’m a “tax dodging twat” we use the salary sacrifice scheme which avoids paying full tax on pension contributions.

 

[weejockmcplop]

So you guys think its ok that the poor have no choice but to pay tax but the rich can basically do whatever they want?

And our government has spent the last 10 years saying we are skint and the poor must be further punished for this, while totally failing to close loopholes or collect what they are owed by billionaires.

Sure I don't blame Hamilton, Jimmy Carr or any of the rest of em, but our tax system punishes the poor, who if they miss a single council tax payment can look forward to aggressive bailiffs showing up at their door, while the rich just need to buy someone dinner and then get to pay 0 tax.

Hamilton supports BLM but in refusing to pay the correct amount of tax, he is denying justice to poor black people who are on the arse end of the underfunded criminal justice system, often unable to have a free solicitor because of CUTS to legal aid, caused by our country apparently not having enough money.
So until he pays his fair share, maybe he should fuck off trying to pretend he cares about issues.

One question though seriously:
If Hamilton shouldn't have to pay tax because he's good at driving cars, what about a nurse who saved 50 lives last year? Should they pay tax?

 

[Strett]

So you guys think its ok that the poor have no choice but to pay tax but the rich can basically do whatever they want?

And our government has spent the last 10 years saying we are skint and the poor must be further punished for this, while totally failing to close loopholes or collect what they are owed by billionaires.

Sure I don't blame Hamilton, Jimmy Carr or any of the rest of em, but our tax system punishes the poor, who if they miss a single council tax payment can look forward to aggressive bailiffs showing up at their door, while the rich just need to buy someone dinner and then get to pay 0 tax.

Hamilton supports BLM but in refusing to pay the correct amount of tax, he is denying justice to poor black people who are on the arse end of the underfunded criminal justice system, often unable to have a free solicitor because of CUTS to legal aid, caused by our country apparently not having enough money.
So until he pays his fair share, maybe he should fuck off trying to pretend he cares about issues.

One question though seriously:
If Hamilton shouldn't have to pay tax because he's good at driving cars, what about a nurse who saved 50 lives last year? Should they pay tax?

I’m too sure how many nurses buy £16m private jets they can avoid tax on and he is in the top 5000 tax payers in the U.K.

 

[weejockmcplop]

I’m too sure how many nurses buy £16m private jets they can avoid tax on and he is in the top 5000 tax payers in the U.K.

It doesn't matter. They HAVE to pay tax, they don't have the choice Hamilton has to decide not to bother unless he feels like it.
David Mitchell explains it best:

 

[Pope John XXIII]

So you guys think its ok that the poor have no choice but to pay tax but the rich can basically do whatever they want?

And our government has spent the last 10 years saying we are skint and the poor must be further punished for this, while totally failing to close loopholes or collect what they are owed by billionaires.

Sure I don't blame Hamilton, Jimmy Carr or any of the rest of em, but our tax system punishes the poor, who if they miss a single council tax payment can look forward to aggressive bailiffs showing up at their door, while the rich just need to buy someone dinner and then get to pay 0 tax.

Hamilton supports BLM but in refusing to pay the correct amount of tax, he is denying justice to poor black people who are on the arse end of the underfunded criminal justice system, often unable to have a free solicitor because of CUTS to legal aid, caused by our country apparently not having enough money.
So until he pays his fair share, maybe he should fuck off trying to pretend he cares about issues.

One question though seriously:
If Hamilton shouldn't have to pay tax because he's good at driving cars, what about a nurse who saved 50 lives last year? Should they pay tax?

This isn't really the issue here, our angry friend has just brought a discussion about a sport he has little interest in round to something he can rant about. He got mullered on the Jewish argument and ran a mile, now feels like he needs a "win".

No one likes the way the tax system works for the rich.

But come on; let's not pretend that the working class are uniformally hammered by it.

Doing cash in hand jobs on the side, not declaring your full income and milking the tax system is just as much an intrinsic part of working class economic culture as it is amongst the super wealthy.

I guarentee you and JC know working class people who do this on a weekly basis and you say shit all about it. Huge numbers who work for themselves in manual trades avoid at least some tax, and some avoid absolutely huge amounts of it.

I walk around my area, which is primarily manual tradesmen. I see all the plumbers, electricians, builders etc with a Mercedes or two on the drive and an extension being built and I wonder how accurate that self assessment form is? Not very I reckon.

So come off it, let's not pretend that tax dodging only happens at the top end; the top end just do it on a financially (but not necessarily proportionally) bigger scale and know how to do it more legally.

It is the poor saps like me on PAYE who are "exploited" because there is nothing we can do to fiddle the system.

Hamilton is a brilliant driver earning a lot of money, but in a career that ends by the time he is 40 I'm not surprised that he lives in Monaco to keep as much of his life income as possible. That doesn't mean I condone it; but he isn't robbing anyone in his methods; he doesn't pay British tax because he doesn't live here anymore, he lives in Monaco. I would too if I could afford it.

Why should I have more problem with Hamilton than the Roofer up the road who earns 1/2 or 2/3 what I do but has a new Tesla on the drive and holidays abroad twice a year?

 

[Strett]

This isn't really the issue here, our angry friend has just brought a discussion about a sport he has little interest in round to something he can rant about. He got mullered on the Jewish argument and ran a mile, now feels like he needs a "win".

No one likes the way the tax system works for the rich.

But come on; let's not pretend that the working class are uniformally hammered by it.

Doing cash in hand jobs on the side, not declaring your full income and milking the tax system is just as much an intrinsic part of working class economic culture as it is amongst the super wealthy.

I guarentee you and JC know working class people who do this on a weekly basis and you say shit all about it. Huge numbers who work for themselves in manual trades avoid at least some tax, and some avoid absolutely huge amounts of it.

I walk around my area, which is primarily manual tradesmen. I see all the plumbers, electricians, builders etc with a Mercedes or two on the drive and an extension being built and I wonder how accurate that self assessment form is? Not very I reckon.

So come off it, let's not pretend that tax dodging only happens at the top end; the top end just do it on a financially (but not necessarily proportionally) bigger scale and know how to do it more legally.

It is the poor saps like me on PAYE who are "exploited" because there is nothing we can do to fiddle the system.

Hamilton is a brilliant driver earning a lot of money, but in a career that ends by the time he is 40 I'm not surprised that he lives in Monaco to keep as much of his life income as possible. That doesn't mean I condone it; but he isn't robbing anyone in his methods; he doesn't pay British tax because he doesn't live here anymore, he lives in Monaco. I would too if I could afford it.

Why should I have more problem with Hamilton than the Roofer up the road who earns 1/2 or 2/3 what I do but has a new Tesla on the drive and holidays abroad twice a year?

He does pay tax here. Mercedes are based in the U.K. and a large portion of his salary from them is taxed to the exchequer. He is in the top 5000 tax payers in the U.K.
Agree with the self employed. It was quite something seeing people I know, who pay less tax than me, driving new Range Rovers complaining that Sunac’s scheme was terrible because it was based on their tax returns.

 

[weejockmcplop]

This isn't really the issue here, our angry friend has just brought a discussion about a sport he has little interest in round to something he can rant about. He got mullered on the Jewish argument and ran a mile, now feels like he needs a "win".

No one likes the way the tax system works for the rich.

But come on; let's not pretend that the working class are uniformally hammered by it.

Doing cash in hand jobs on the side, not declaring your full income and milking the tax system is just as much an intrinsic part of working class economic culture as it is amongst the super wealthy.

I guarentee you and JC know working class people who do this on a weekly basis and you say shit all about it. Huge numbers who work for themselves in manual trades avoid at least some tax, and some avoid absolutely huge amounts of it.

I walk around my area, which is primarily manual tradesmen. I see all the plumbers, electricians, builders etc with a Mercedes or two on the drive and an extension being built and I wonder how accurate that self assessment form is? Not very I reckon.

So come off it, let's not pretend that tax dodging only happens at the top end; the top end just do it on a financially (but not necessarily proportionally) bigger scale and know how to do it more legally.

It is the poor saps like me on PAYE who are "exploited" because there is nothing we can do to fiddle the system.

Hamilton is a brilliant driver earning a lot of money, but in a career that ends by the time he is 40 I'm not surprised that he lives in Monaco to keep as much of his life income as possible. That doesn't mean I condone it; but he isn't robbing anyone in his methods; he doesn't pay British tax because he doesn't live here anymore, he lives in Monaco. I would too if I could afford it.

Why should I have more problem with Hamilton than the Roofer up the road who earns 1/2 or 2/3 what I do but has a new Tesla on the drive and holidays abroad twice a year?

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Hamilton (like I said I don't blame him for exploiting the loopholes), but I just wish he'd shut up about issues if he isn't going to demonstrate that he has a social conscience and do his share to help.

Interesting how when I was talking about the poor, you change the language to 'the working class' to make your point.

Honestly I don't know anyone who doesn't work PAYE jobs. The vast majority of low paying work uses PAYE. Next you'll be saying that benefits are for scroungers and cheats and whatever other nonsense you see on channel 5 poverty porn documentaries.

Also, if people are taking cash in hand jobs, that is illegal.
High level tax avoidance just requires being nice to the right person and its perfectly legal.
This means that even the evil working classes have the odds stacked further against them by law.

 

[Pope John XXIII]

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Hamilton (like I said I don't blame him for exploiting the loopholes), but I just wish he'd shut up about issues if he isn't going to demonstrate that he has a social conscience and do his share to help.

Interesting how when I was talking about the poor, you change the language to 'the working class' to make your point.

Honestly I don't know anyone who doesn't work PAYE jobs. The vast majority of low paying work uses PAYE. Next you'll be saying that benefits are for scroungers and cheats and whatever other nonsense you see on channel 5 poverty porn documentaries.

Also, if people are taking cash in hand jobs, that is illegal.
High level tax avoidance just requires being nice to the right person and its perfectly legal.
This means that even the evil working classes have the odds stacked further against them by law.

None of that really addresses my points though.

As for Hamilton, Streatta has answered that with more knowledge than I have.

It doesn't really matter whether you know anyone who is not on PAYE. If you dont then you aren't really going to have much of a handle in this discussion. Let me just say that cash in hand as well as other fiddles are fairly widespread and accepted as the done thing in working class areas of Nottingham. Yes, it is illegal; I did actually make that point.

When you talk about the poor, who else are you talking about other than the working class? If we adhere to a class based society, earning-wise the working class are bottom of the ladder.

If you specifically are talking about the care workers etc earning minimum wage on PAYE then yes, you are right; but I think they might turn their anger to the self employed who underpay tax to take foreign holidays who live on their street rather than the F1 driver who lives in Monaco and is actually one of the highest taxpayers in the country.

My family are recipients of three different kinds of benefit (including child benefit) so please don't try and pigeon hole me as a benefit porn Sun reader.

 

[Basha73]

He does pay tax here. Mercedes are based in the U.K. and a large portion of his salary from them is taxed to the exchequer. He is in the top 5000 tax payers in the U.K.
Agree with the self employed. It was quite something seeing people I know, who pay less tax than me, driving new Range Rovers complaining that Sunac’s scheme was terrible because it was based on their tax returns.

Working in an industry that deals predominantly with the self employed I have a very jaded view of the ‘average self employed person’. There are honest people out there but I am surprised when I see what looks to be a genuine return.

I thought it was a stroke of genius when the scheme was based on tax returns as people who had declared less than a third of their income suddenly felt the drop of the other foot.

The loopholes are slowly closing though...

 

[weejockmcplop]

None of that really addresses my points though.

As for Hamilton, Streatta has answered that with more knowledge than I have.

It doesn't really matter whether you know anyone who is not on PAYE. If you dont then you aren't really going to have much of a handle in this discussion. Let me just say that cash in hand as well as other fiddles are fairly widespread and accepted as the done thing in working class areas of Nottingham. Yes, it is illegal; I did actually make that point.

When you talk about the poor, who else are you talking about other than the working class? If we adhere to a class based society, earning-wise the working class are bottom of the ladder.

If you specifically are talking about the care workers etc earning minimum wage on PAYE then yes, you are right; but I think they might turn their anger to the self employed who underpay tax to take foreign holidays who live on their street rather than the F1 driver who lives in Monaco and is actually one of the highest taxpayers in the country.

My family are recipients of three different kinds of benefit (including child benefit) so please don't try and pigeon hole me as a benefit porn Sun reader.

I'm getting more aware as this goes on that its about being nice to the F1 driver you like, which is fine. I think this is what prompted me to respond in the first place. We all have a weakness for sportspeople that we like, so fair enough. I still like music by bands where the members have been accused of stuff and I don't like thinking about the bad stuff they have done.

I don't think people should turn their anger more to those who can be prosecuted by the government for their illegal tax evasion, and I don't think they should turn their anger at Hamilton either for that matter. He's no better or worse than anyone else who avoids some tax sometimes. He's a Gary Barlow.
They should turn their anger to a government that uses lack of money as an excuse to decimate poor areas of the country while failing to collect MASSIVE amounts of tax that they are owed. To be fair, this applies much more to businesses than it does to individuals like Hamilton.

And yes, I don't really know many self employed people, but if, as you insist, they are driving around in nice cars and stuff, I wouldn't call them poor, because that is definitely not what poor means.
I'm talking about people who work full time and struggle to make ends meet. These people don't get a tax break - no matter how entertaining they are.

 

[JC21]

And every single one of them are "tax dodging twats", including pretty much all current and past British drivers.

I wonder if our angry friend believes that Mr Marinakis pays all his taxes?

Angry? Who's the one who gets mad and abusive when your precious Hamiton gets a grid penalty? Anyway, I only said cos I knew you'd bite and being part of the woke would turn to 'racism' again. Job done

 

[Pope John XXIII]

I'm getting more aware as this goes on that its about being nice to the F1 driver you like, which is fine. I think this is what prompted me to respond in the first place. We all have a weakness for sportspeople that we like, so fair enough. I still like music by bands where the members have been accused of stuff and I don't like thinking about the bad stuff they have done.

I don't think people should turn their anger more to those who can be prosecuted by the government for their illegal tax evasion, and I don't think they should turn their anger at Hamilton either for that matter. He's no better or worse than anyone else who avoids some tax sometimes. He's a Gary Barlow.
They should turn their anger to a government that uses lack of money as an excuse to decimate poor areas of the country while failing to collect MASSIVE amounts of tax that they are owed. To be fair, this applies much more to businesses than it does to individuals like Hamilton.

And yes, I don't really know many self employed people, but if, as you insist, they are driving around in nice cars and stuff, I wouldn't call them poor, because that is definitely not what poor means.
I'm talking about people who work full time and struggle to make ends meet. These people don't get a tax break - no matter how entertaining they are.

Once we get past the first paragraph, which is wrong, I can't disagree with any of that post really

I would point out the difference between tax evasion (illegal, what we are talking about with the self employed) and avoidance (perfectly legal, what the businesses and the rich do)

If you wanted to find a reading of that difference that suggests the government is protecting one group over another, I would not disagree with you at all on that.

Interesting discussion

 

[Pope John XXIII]

Angry? Who's the one who gets mad and abusive when your precious Hamiton gets a grid penalty? Anyway, I only said cos I knew you'd bite and being part of the woke would turn to 'racism' again. Job done

I haven't turned to racism again and I haven't been abusive in the slightest to anyone.

I've been involved in an interesting and respectful discussion while you have been calling one of the greatest sportsman in British history a twat

 

[Strett]

None of that really addresses my points though.

As for Hamilton, Streatta has answered that with more knowledge than I have.

It doesn't really matter whether you know anyone who is not on PAYE. If you dont then you aren't really going to have much of a handle in this discussion. Let me just say that cash in hand as well as other fiddles are fairly widespread and accepted as the done thing in working class areas of Nottingham. Yes, it is illegal; I did actually make that point.

When you talk about the poor, who else are you talking about other than the working class? If we adhere to a class based society, earning-wise the working class are bottom of the ladder.

If you specifically are talking about the care workers etc earning minimum wage on PAYE then yes, you are right; but I think they might turn their anger to the self employed who underpay tax to take foreign holidays who live on their street rather than the F1 driver who lives in Monaco and is actually one of the highest taxpayers in the country.

My family are recipients of three different kinds of benefit (including child benefit) so please don't try and pigeon hole me as a benefit porn Sun reader.

I can honestly say that if I was earning that Lolley, I’d probably be doing the very same. I’d pay an accountant to sort out my tax affairs, with the instruction from me to stay within the law but keep as much of my own money as possible. I would also do philanthropic activities.
I dare say, most others would if they were fortunate enough to have these choices to make.

 

[JC21]

I haven't turned to racism again and I haven't been abusive in the slightest to anyone.

I've been involved in an interesting and respectful discussion while you have been calling one of the greatest sportsman in British history a twat

I think he is a twat (I'm well within my right to) and it's indisputable that he's a tax dodger. You was abusive to Taylor82 and even admitted it was because of your precious tax dodger or are you even denying that now?

 

[JC21]

benefit the working class voting tory? i mean seriously, how the hell do you believe something like that? its totally illogical.

What ya talking about? Are you suggesting that I voted Tory?

 

[weejockmcplop]

I can honestly say that if I was earning that Lolley, I’d probably be doing the very same. I’d pay an accountant to sort out my tax affairs, with the instruction from me to stay within the law but keen as much of my own money as possible. I would also do philanthropic activities.
I dare say, most others would if they were fortunate enough to have these choices to make.

I almost certainly would too, its part and parcel of being rich.
That's why the government needs to step up its tax collecting game, if they are going to complain that our country is skint.

...
And don't forget, those philanthropic activities help you avoid even more tax

 

[JC21]

I can honestly say that if I was earning that Lolley, I’d probably be doing the very same. I’d pay an accountant to sort out my tax affairs, with the instruction from me to stay within the law but keen as much of my own money as possible. I would also do philanthropic activities.
I dare say, most others would if they were fortunate enough to have these choices to make.

I can honestly say that I wouldn't. Now I don't for one minute agree with a lot of our tax goes (Blair's wars are a prime example) but it's morally right to pay what you 'owe' in tax

 

[weejockmcplop]

I can honestly say that I wouldn't. Now I don't for one minute agree with a lot of our tax goes (Blair's wars are a prime example) but it's morally right to pay what you 'owe' in tax

Personal morals and politics should stay very far apart imo.
When people are sure they are morally right, they are sure their opponents are morally evil - and anything is then justified.

Politics should be about guiding an increase in quality of life for the inhabitants of a country, and not much else. The practical issues in doing this are much more interesting than moral arguments about who is/is not evil.

 

[JC21]

Personal morals and politics should stay very far apart imo.
When people are sure they are morally right, they are sure their opponents are morally evil - and anything is then justified.

Politics should be about guiding an increase in quality of life for the inhabitants of a country, and not much else. The practical issues in doing this are much more interesting than moral arguments about who is/is not evil.

I don't see how it's even remotely possible to keep morals and political apart