The VAR / Refereeing Thread | Page 26 | Vital Football

The VAR / Refereeing Thread

It's not VAR that is the issue, it's the incompetence of the officials with or without it.

VAR is totally wrong in its use of deciding Offside though T .

A toenail , elbow or head two inches in front of a defenders Knee when running at full speed is clearly not offside .
Half a second after or earlier the operator decides to freeze the frame and it is a different outcome .

That cannot be right.
There simply has to be daylight between the players for an advantage to be meaningful .
 
VAR is totally wrong in its use of deciding Offside though T .

A toenail , elbow or head two inches in front of a defenders Knee when running at full speed is clearly not offside .
Half a second after or earlier the operator decides to freeze the frame and it is a different outcome .

That cannot be right.
There simply has to be daylight between the players for an advantage to be meaningful .
That's always been my view, that there should be clear daylight between the defender and attacker but while the rules are as they are then being off by a toenail or any other body part is going to be the case. Don't forget though, VAR does correct quite a few incorrect offside calls where goals had been ruled out because of a linesmans call.
 
That's always been my view, that there should be clear daylight between the defender and attacker but while the rules are as they are then being off by a toenail or any other body part is going to be the case. Don't forget though, VAR does correct quite a few incorrect offside calls where goals had been ruled out because of a linesmans call.

I thought that the laws of the game stated that level is not an offside offence. It is the use of technology that has eliminated the ability for players to be level.

I've said this for years, but when they draw the red and blue lines they should only count everything over a body's width i.e. about 50cm.
 
A goal hanger was outlawed during the time when the game was played by Gentlemem .

There were actually games between Gentlemen and Players .

A player was deemed to be “not worthy of his side “ by goal hanging , …..which was rife in our infant school playground matches .

So a Law was brought in to stop this practice .

“Not worthy of his side “ became a common expression in football conversations , and over the years became bastardised to ‘off side ‘.

The Law stated that there had to be two opposition players between the intended recipient of an attacking pass , at the moment the ball was kicked , and the goal line.

Then , after consultations ,, it was amended to say that an attacker could not be offside in his own half of the pitch , or that if he was behind the ball in play .

Being level with the last defender was deemed to be allowable because it was not in breach of the Law .

The present process is now in breach of that Law .

Whoever deemed it necessary to implement the micro management of two players running at full speed has no thought for the good of the game .

There is no advantage in having an ankle two inches in front of an opponents head,

It is petty , it is ridiculous , it is ruining the game , it is making the officials not worthy of their position in the game .

They are Offpo’s . .

Although that is not what I call them !
 
I agree...I said I think the ref/VAR system needs vast improvement. I wholeheartedly agree with that. My point is we are all in this shit storm together...it isn't just specific targeting of Spurs.
It is a serious issue that affects Spurs more than any other top club. there is an unfairness issue for relegation fighting and newly promoted clubs who are very often not given fair treatment, (unless they are playing us).

A statistical analysis would prove Spurs' plight. Here are a few data points that could be explored:
1. Fouls penalised but where no yellow card was given to the fouling team member based on either the individual number of fouls by the offending player or the obvious nature of his foul would have demanded a yellow card be given. Spurs would be top (i.e. most unfairly treated every year when compared to the top eigh/ten clubs.
2. Players who have committed multiple fouls with no card awarded against them; showing the opposition team. Spurs will be the most sinned against team against the same comparator group or all clubs if anyone wants to go that far.
3. Clear fouls on a player i.e. even the commentator says "i thought that might be a foul" but ref ignores it. Our players are fouled throughout every match and the refs ignore the assaults, nearly always.
4. Number of free kicks awarded in the opposition's third compared to the median of the top ten clubs (Spurs will be the most unfairly treated as refs never give us free kicks in dangerous positions.
5. Number of times refs signal that they are going to play the advantage rather than awarding the foul compared to the median of the top ten clubs. Refs constantly ignore fouls on us by playing the advantage when there is no clear advantage as the opposition always have eight men back and the refs almost never go back after the move and book the player for what is often a nasty foul.
6. Look at stat of most attacking teams (so maybe XG) who are awarded the least number of free kicks in the final third and the same stat for the awarding of penalties. We will be top of these too.
 
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Paqueta was consistently allowed to barge over our players last night with at least two incidents that were worthy of yellow cards and consequently a red and a sending off. The referee was unbelievably lenient towards a very physical Wet Spam side.

Yes and we dealt with it reasonably well. Our finishing is killing us. Son is in one of his annual slumps. If he doesn't wake the naff up we will continue to struggle....unless Rich starts instead.
 
It is a serious issue that affects Spurs more than any other top club. there is an unfairness issue for relegation fighting and newly promoted clubs who are very often not given fair treatment, (unless they are playing us).

A statistical analysis would prove Spurs' plight. Here are a few data points that could be explored:
1. Fouls penalised but where no yellow card was given to the fouling team member based on either the individual number of fouls by the offending player or the obvious nature of his foul would have demanded a yellow card be given. Spurs would be top (i.e. most unfairly treated every year when compared to the top eigh/ten clubs.
2. Players who have committed multiple fouls with no card awarded against them; showing the opposition team. Spurs will be the most sinned against team against the same comparator group or all clubs if anyone wants to go that far.
3. Clear fouls on a player i.e. even the commentator says "i thought that might be a foul" but ref ignores it. Our players are fouled throughout every match and the refs ignore the assaults, nearly always.
4. Number of free kicks awarded in the opposition's third compared to the median of the top ten clubs (Spurs will be the most unfairly treated as refs never give us free kicks in dangerous positions.
5. Number of times refs signal that they are going to play the advantage rather than awarding the foul compared to the median of the top ten clubs. Refs constantly ignore fouls on us by playing the advantage when there is no clear advantage as the opposition always have eight men back and the refs almost never go back after the move and book the player for what is often a nasty foul.
6. Look at stat of most attacking teams (so maybe XG) who are awarded the least number of free kicks in the final third and the same stat for the awarding of penalties. We will be top of these too.

We may not be as squeaky clean as you make out. Spurs are a repetitive fouling team themselves. In the case of Udogie, he doesn't even try and play for the ball. He just puts his Mr Blobby outfit on and just bundles into them.

My view on this is don't make Spurs the victim. Just focus generically on PGMOL, IFAB, FIFA etc and keep knocking on their door until they change. I was actually glad that LFC and AFC made public statements of no-confidence against them. I was happy that a player as respected as Kompany has been vocal this last week. I'm also happy that Forest are giving Howard Webb and team a really tough time.

As far as I can see, we wouldn't even have to worry about dark art merchants like Emery and Moyes if we focused on the actual root cause. We all know what it is.
 
It is a serious issue that affects Spurs more than any other top club. there is an unfairness issue for relegation fighting and newly promoted clubs who are very often not given fair treatment, (unless they are playing us).

A statistical analysis would prove Spurs' plight. Here are a few data points that could be explored:
1. Fouls penalised but where no yellow card was given to the fouling team member based on either the individual number of fouls by the offending player or the obvious nature of his foul would have demanded a yellow card be given. Spurs would be top (i.e. most unfairly treated every year when compared to the top eigh/ten clubs.
2. Players who have committed multiple fouls with no card awarded against them; showing the opposition team. Spurs will be the most sinned against team against the same comparator group or all clubs if anyone wants to go that far.
3. Clear fouls on a player i.e. even the commentator says "i thought that might be a foul" but ref ignores it. Our players are fouled throughout every match and the refs ignore the assaults, nearly always.
4. Number of free kicks awarded in the opposition's third compared to the median of the top ten clubs (Spurs will be the most unfairly treated as refs never give us free kicks in dangerous positions.
5. Number of times refs signal that they are going to play the advantage rather than awarding the foul compared to the median of the top ten clubs. Refs constantly ignore fouls on us by playing the advantage when there is no clear advantage as the opposition always have eight men back and the refs almost never go back after the move and book the player for what is often a nasty foul.
6. Look at stat of most attacking teams (so maybe XG) who are awarded the least number of free kicks in the final third and the same stat for the awarding of penalties. We will be top of these too.
Timbo , that’s a good post , but how do we get the stats to back it up .

We all have the same thoughts , but how do we prove it .

I would probably go along with USAF on this ,that the standard of referees is the same for all teams .

You should post more on here Timbo , your views are missed when you don’t .
 
Timbo , that’s a good post , but how do we get the stats to back it up .

We all have the same thoughts , but how do we prove it .

I would probably go along with USAF on this ,that the standard of referees is the same for all teams .

You should post more on here Timbo , your views are missed when you don’t .
Thanks, Walthie,

An AI programme could deliver this but it would be an enbarassment to the concept of fair officials.
I am convinced that Spurs are targeted to be excluded from football riches, this has gone on for years so VARnot the issue.
 
There will always be controversy about offside however you define it. Having technology decide it is better than the subjective view of officials though, provided they have no power to influence the point of line drawing. Being level is onside, that is the accepted criteria.
 
Timbo , that’s a good post , but how do we get the stats to back it up .

We all have the same thoughts , but how do we prove it .

I would probably go along with USAF on this ,that the standard of referees is the same for all teams .

You should post more on here Timbo , your views are missed when you don’t .
To be honest Walt, yes the Refs for all teams are poor/crap as US put it, but and its a bloody big BUT, they really are not that poor regards the richest teams, except Spurs where it looks like they go out of their way to give us absolutely fcuk all, am being paranoid or bias? lol!

How many Pens have been given to us this season? and how many to the Top 3? I may ask. COYS
 
To be honest Walt, yes the Refs for all teams are poor/crap as US put it, but and its a bloody big BUT, they really are not that poor regards the richest teams, except Spurs where it looks like they go out of their way to give us absolutely fcuk all, am being paranoid or bias? lol!

How many Pens have been given to us this season? and how many to the Top 3? I may ask. COYS

We are biased because we love OUR team and hate all the others....LOL...so of course we are going to feel like our team is getting screwed over more than others.

I get just as pissed as all of your regarding the ref's sucking and VAR being utter dogshit sometimes....but in the end all teams are dealing with it.

I do think some teams get more penalties than others simple due to the fact that they are actually attacking and in the box more than others. We don't see that many penalties simply because I don't think we are in the box that much. Surely not as much as the top 3. They damn near live in there they are attacking! Our attack seems to live primarily right outside the box and we venture in now and then....

Just my thoughts...I don't get hung up on conspiracy theories.

In the end the table looks to be quite honest....we are nowhere near as good as the top 3 and there is a chunk of teams fighting for 4-7'ish...which is where we rightfully fall.
 
Can anyone tell me the difference between 2 Pen decisions in 2 games
As far as I could see both tackles exactly the same scenario, defender gets ball first but ends up wiv the attacking player going over.

Shitehawks v Gooners - pen given in about the 34th min 1st half

Villans v Bees - pen not given in about the 3rd or 4th min 1st half
 
We are biased because we love OUR team and hate all the others....LOL...so of course we are going to feel like our team is getting screwed over more than others.

I get just as pissed as all of your regarding the ref's sucking and VAR being utter dogshit sometimes....but in the end all teams are dealing with it.

I do think some teams get more penalties than others simple due to the fact that they are actually attacking and in the box more than others. We don't see that many penalties simply because I don't think we are in the box that much. Surely not as much as the top 3. They damn near live in there they are attacking! Our attack seems to live primarily right outside the box and we venture in now and then....

Just my thoughts...I don't get hung up on conspiracy theories.

In the end the table looks to be quite honest....we are nowhere near as good as the top 3 and there is a chunk of teams fighting for 4-7'ish...which is where we rightfully fall.

I wish some one would do a 10 year statistical analysis of every game in the PL over that period to see if there are any trends.

These days, a common refrain in the circles I travel in professionally is "Last year's conspiracy theory is this year's news."
 
We are starting to see a surge in managers lambasting referees and punishments handed out.

The media and pundits play a large part in driving disrespect for the referees. The questioning of refs by these entities is giving everyone licence to do so.
 
SO has Semi-Automatic Offside Technology been discussed?

Premier League to change VAR offside calls – but not until mid-way through next season​


Unanimous agreement between top-flight clubs to introduce the technology during 2024/25 season to help speed up play



Mike McGrath 11 April 2024 • 3:24pm

Premier League to change VAR offside calls – but not until mid-way through next season

Semi-automated technology will help to significantly reduce the time required to make offside decisions through the use of VAR




The Premier League are introducing new VAR technology next season, but the “semi-automated offside” system will not be ready for the start of the campaign.
Shareholders for top-flight clubs met on Thursday and agreed on the changes which will speed up decisions on offsides. Uefa currently use this software and cameras in the Champions League to send a message to the assistant referee when there is an offside.
The system is set to be brought in after one of the international breaks next season, with Nations League matches scheduled for September, October and November. It means assistants will raise their flags immediately when there is an offside, rather than wait until the phase of play is over.
“At a Premier League Shareholders’ meeting today, clubs unanimously agreed to the introduction of Semi-Automated Offside Technology,” read a statement from the Premier League.
“The new system will be used for the first time in the Premier League next season, and it is anticipated the technology will be ready to be introduced after one of the Autumn international breaks.
“The technology will provide quicker and consistent placement of the virtual offside line, based on optical player tracking, and will produce high-quality broadcast graphics to ensure an enhanced in-stadium and broadcast experience for supporters.”
The human element of VAR has led to Luis Diaz’s goal against Tottenham being incorrectly ruled out for offside in September, with the communication between VAR and on-pitch official denying Liverpool a legitimate goal.
But the system would not bring an end to controversial VAR situations such as last weekend when Wolves were denied an equaliser against West Ham over Tawanda Chirewa being offside and standing near goalkeeper Lukasz Fabianski. Offside decisions would speed up by 30 seconds but VAR has also been at the centre of penalty controversy.
 
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Great article on VAR by Matt Dickinson in The Times today.


Uefa shows Premier League how it’s done with sparing use of VAR​


"I have had plenty of cause in the past nine years to think back to the white Transit van which once sat in a car park outside Feyenoord’s De Kuip stadium. I was the first journalist allowed inside that vehicle, and into football’s brave new world.

“This nondescript van may end up in a museum one day given that it houses potentially one of the most notable changes to football in a century,” I wrote, and that seems to have been no exaggeration. After all, this was the birthplace of VAR.

I wondered at the time if I should use the term “revolution”. “Some people call it that,” Gijs de Jong, operations director of the Royal Dutch Football Association (KNVB), told me. “We just think it’s common sense.”

Common sense. It can be elusive in football — the game draws us in until it makes us wildly irrational — but I felt it, contentedly, watching Arsenal versus Bayern Munich on Tuesday evening.

I saw the implementation of the VAR that I was promised right from the start, which seemed so simple and appealing. As it was explained, the system was there to correct big, avoidable errors. The video assistant had 15 seconds to rewatch an incident a few times and decide, quickly, if this was an undeniable, game-changing blunder.

Yes, there were many questions which could not be answered that day but it was a basic tool to be used sparingly and swiftly to avoid those injustices that anyone and everyone would think idiotic to overlook. More fool us, as I have written many times, if we could not make this work.

And if I have had a few occasions of doubt since, or wondered if my faith and judgment were awry, to watch that Arsenal game in all its heat, profile and high stakes felt like a welcome reminder of why I have kept belief, and how VAR should work if we all just stay sensible. Was the referee right or wrong? Wrong question.

When Harry Kane’s elbow caught Gabriel in the face after he had glanced backwards, the referee saw it and gave a yellow card. For VAR to overturn that decision, he would need to be very sure about replacing one subjective call about recklessness and intent with another.

The referee will have told the VAR what he saw and his belief that it merited a booking. If the VAR believed that sounded like an acceptable on-field decision — perhaps persuaded, for example, that Gabriel stooped a little — then so be it.

You may think Kane was very lucky. Another referee might have gone straight to red, and VAR would not have intervened then either. But that is the point. A decision was made which we can debate but, in short, was not categorically wrong either way.

The same when Bukayo Saka collided with Manuel Neuer. Maybe you saw a penalty. At least one experienced referee I know believes most officials would have given it. But Glenn Nyberg felt Saka threw his leg out, and so did many others — and VAR recognised that with different interpretations available, the role is to allow the referee’s version to stand unless there is an unarguable case otherwise.

The implementation of the light-touch VAR championed by Uefa made for a better game. It makes for more robust, confident officials. It made sense of a system that has become so needlessly overcomplicated and vexatious in England.

If this had been the Premier League, the outcome would probably have been different. There would have been a much higher likelihood of a VAR intervention because we have lost our way, mislaid the “clear and obvious” threshold. We all know it. The game’s administrators acknowledge it. As the league’s chief football officer Tony Scholes said in February, there are “too many checks” which are “taking too long”.

We incessantly question the officials and they question themselves and all of us end up questioning everything — be that managers, pundits, media and fans — to a point of paralysis by analysis. We end up painfully pouring over a debatable block at a corner which is not remotely the fault of VAR but our own meddling.

Where does that come from? Probably all of us. Managers with overblown expectations that they can influence decisions; media giving exposure to ludicrously self-serving criticisms of officials; TV shows endlessly pulling apart every tiny incident. All this against the backdrop of a deep culture of dissent in football that has run unchecked for decades; a society that has never been quicker, or more vocal, in the rush to judge.

A reset is required, which sounds rather daunting in those circumstances but should not be so difficult. It will have to come from those who run the game, not only informing officials of the new approach but all of us. Communication has never been VAR’s strong point. PGMOL, particularly under Howard Webb, has made strides but the failure to explain, particularly inside stadiums, has been sorely lacking.

The news that from next season the Premier League will introduce semi-automated offside, and communicate those graphics more clearly, is one step forward. But the biggest change is to back off this pursuit of perfection.

No one ever said VAR would, or should, be a panacea. Danny Makkelie was the video assistant referee on the day I visited the Dutch pilot. “As long as the media and the public understand that it’s not 100 per cent waterproof,” he said. “There will still be arguments. This is only for black-and-white cases but we can solve many problems.”

We can solve many but not all — and certainly should not go venturing unnecessarily into grey areas. Constantly citing that decisions are 96 per cent accurate with VAR, compared with about 85 per cent in the Championship, perhaps gives an unhelpful impression of a pursuit of perfection.

We need to back off, as those incidents at the Emirates Stadium this week showed when it was enough to have the application of one experienced referee’s opinion supported by an invisible safety net.

Right or wrong? No, just credible, sensible. Even in a game which thrives on wild drama and unruly emotions, maybe one day it could catch on."